What Do You Tell the Next Generation?

It's been a while. Kim, you've been away. You've been traveling on holiday. Ali, you've been busy with workshops and things. I've had a busy month training leaders, young and experienced, which is absolutely fascinating. Um, where do we want to go? What's on your mind as we go into this session?

So we um so I was just telling you about all those questions I've been receiving lately from students um like uh I don't know what to call them young professionals or others who wants to join the sector and they frustrated yeah exactly yeah or emerging leaders or um uh what was the word they used early career leaders was the other phraseology that they liked. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um and those questions about joining the sector, some feeling a bit frustrated about okay, what's what's next and how would they navigate what's happening right now. Uh I also had multiple conversations with um several colleagues who went back from country operations after losing their jobs or leaving the assignment and they are struggling a bit with what's called the normal life.

Um and I feel there is a bit sense of frustration or lack of clarity on what comes next. I spoke with couple of people at universities and I felt exactly the same. Some kind of like uh uncertain direction, confusion, frustration, mix of different feelings. So I felt it might be worth reflecting on and thinking about together.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I've had similar like I said I've been working with some emerging leaders or early career leaders but also earlier in the year I was asked to go speak to some university mast's students um for exactly the same question but really the thing that really inspired me to talk to them was the lecturer used the sentence um as educators we need to start thinking about what we're educating people on because things are changing so much as well. So no I think it's a great topic to

delve into for sure. Yeah, because it gets into like what is the what are the bets we're making about the sector whatever however you want to define the sector anytime someone is coming in like anytime there's a young someone coming in and they want to create their career just to be clear there's never been a trajectory there's never been it's always been a hard space to get into no matter what and honestly no matter where you live but I think the old pathways are broken and there's I mean people with established careers are really struggling so then there's the question of what does this even look like? And in order to do that, you have to make some bets about what this is going to look like.

So, what are the bets you guys are telling people to make? Or are you saying run just run?

[laughter]

Not saying you've said that to some, but that's more probably more about them, right, than anything else. [laughter] Go It's also like it depends on the area. Like I have some people reaching out from global south asking similar questions. My approach toward answering is a bit different than those who are in the global north and those who are starting or students a bit different than those who already took couple of steps. So I think it depends on the individual and the group and there is one thing that I've been doing recently especially when I'm speaking with students in events or panel discussions or something. I just sit and tell stories and then hear their reflections and we kind of like think together as a group.

I think for me it depends on who I'm speaking with.

Right.

For sure. Yeah. Um the approach I've had interestingly is um because I've been working with a group of emerging leaders, but they are they were all based in or working for a global northbased entity, right? whether that's domestically in the global north or whether that was an INGO's representative entity within a global north country. Um and all of them were coming with this kind of hesitation this sense of unease around what next and you know they didn't articulate it in so many words but certainly the sentiment of have we made the wrong decisions or I entered the sector because I wanted to have certain sort of impact or I wanted to do achieve certain things for the world and now I don't know if I can do that or not and the students that I spoke with at the university.

I mean, they were all going, "Look, we've just invested thousands into a course and now you're here telling us that things have all changed." Um, and it's tough, right? It's really, really hard. The message I've had for people, and actually this is the same message that came through when I was coaching people last year, both those that are still in the sector plus those that had just left the sector. And interestingly, in that group, the ones that were still in wanted out because they felt like they'd been betrayed. and the idea of the sector was no longer what they thought it was and so they weren't going to achieve what they had. So, so those that were in wanted to get out and those that were out wanted back in because the architectures of multilateral aid were where they foraw their avenue and their opportunity to exercise the values and achieve the things they wanted to do in terms of betterment for the world.

Now the advice I give or the framing I've got is historically multilateral aid architecture scaffolding there the jobs within international NOS's and UN entities were the place you could go but if you start reframing the question as to what impact do you want to start having in the world what is it that's drawing you to this nature of work to this type of work then suddenly you're looking at a fact that there's a demand for social impact there's a demand for people who want to exercise humanity and that is not going to go away. In fact, that's only going to increase. So the challenge is not how do I get a job. The challenge is where are the jobs for this type of work, right?

And it might not be in the places that it used to be. In fact, it probably won't be for many people. And so part of the discovery journey for people is well where is that and what does that look like and how do I best do it? Is it starting up something small and working locally? Is it working for something big and internationally? Is it working in philanthropy? Is it working for corporate but on the more CSR side of things? Is it going into the NGO world? Cuz those jobs will still exist. They'll just be very different and a little bit more competitive. So, it's not a one-size fits-all answer. But for me, the crux of it is around the values. What is it that you're trying to get out of this career choice and start focusing on that rather than the scaffolding and the architecture

as it used to be? Well, and what you're saying there, Thomas, is yeah, unpacking like the core motivation versus the identity because so many of us are like, well, I work in this and this is my identity. And there's a lot of people that are having to renegotiate that and say, okay, well, if I really go back to in your words, Ali, first principle, what are my what why did I get into this or why do I want to get into this in the first place? And then just being a little bit more creative and looking around and saying, okay, that could be in Yeah, it could be in the private sector. It could be I mean in some ways it's a good thing because don't we want people with those values kind of you know enforcing across the world and spreading the seed planting the seeds of good throughout.

I want you to say the same. Yeah.

Go ahead. I'm intrigued by the way you detached um motivation and identity um and what I took from what you were saying I don't know if this is what you meant was that the identities are so entrenched with the job and the title and the structures and the architectures that you're part of which is a fascinating concept. It reminds me there's there's a guy I do a lot of work with working with him on the humanitarian society, Gareth Owen. Um he's got a story that he loves telling about years ago working on a response somewhere and he was being interviewed by um an Australian broadcast network and part of the introduction was I'm Gareth Owen. I've been a humanitarian for the last 20 years and the response from the reporter and the Australian piece is important there.

The response from the reporter was what were you before a bastard? and the fact that to your point on identity is so wrapped up with the job, it strips the identity of the value that you have. Right. So for me, I would challenge that the identity is associated with job. Isn't identity associated with values that you can enact and the job is a vehicle to exercising that identity.

But that's exactly what we see with people who are coming from country operations back to home or their normal life or something like that. they are struggling with their identities and at the same time those who lost their jobs they are also struggling with this identity question. But I think when I look at this there are multiple questions here especially going back to first principles like there is the social dynamics or social contract question there is the technology question and AI coming to the picture there is the economic question and here I'm not talking about funding I'm talking about economic situation of countries or institutions or even individuals and how they would support themselves financially and there is the philosophical question where it comes those values or principles and all that.

So I think there are multiple layers under this umbrella and that's usually what I try to do with those who ask me this question or on those conversation to try to distinguish between those different things and try to understand those different things that's happening here and there and of course for students it's a bit different coming from an institution learning about theories and cases and having their own imagination of how it looks like even in the field and then coming to the reality that oh actually opportunities are less the way of thinking changed from what they learned it's a bit outdated what they learned at university and then the practice and multiple other things or those who are they've been in this sector for a while now they are having those questions around you know exactly what you said they are feeling a bit betrayed they are feeling that they are left behind they are feeling a bit confused some of them they want to jump the ship and change the sector others they are thinking about starting their own things and there are all those questions here and there and that's exactly why I said it's really interesting to think about that.

Okay. So I have many thoughts on the on the for the people who are who were working in the sector and have and lost their jobs and are currently trying to kind of rethink um what I and this is you know I'm I'm based in the US and in the states like you know work is very much a part of identity um and so there's just that cultural piece of it too but there's a lot of people that are doing that type of soularching and I'm seeing that some of them are you know no this is who I am I am going to wait and find a job in this space. I'm not changing. Some are looking and broadening their scope and doing what you were both were saying and looking for space, looking for work that contributes to good, maybe closer to home or in different avenues.

And some are just going completely in a different direction and saying, you know what, what brings me joy? I want to be a painter. I want to be a swim coach. I want to start a business making cupcakes. And just going completely different. All of which make sense. The students is an interesting one. And I've had I've same with you both. I've had people reach out saying, you know, can we do an informational interview? What would you know, what advice do you have? It's really hard because there's just so many unknowns and you know, the stakes are high for them. They're coming into this space at such a challenging time. And the only thing that I can say is what I've really said to everyone for years and years is, you know, don't discount the transferable skills.

Think about what the transferable skills are and then think about what gives you energy. because my career trajectory has had many different roles, but the things that have always kind of like the through line that stayed the same is always the thing that like either I'm really good at intuitively or I find or brings me energy and then after you do a number of different things and you see what stays constant. Okay, well that's the thing and I can apply that in many different areas. So for me it's it's bringing people together. It's community building. It's network weaving. It's facilitation. It's strategic thinking. It's systems thinking. All of those things can be applied in many different ways. But that's the through line. Where can you do that?

What are the transferable skills? And then to your point Ali, what's different about this aside from the fact the sector is rapidly changing is that you also have the layer of AI. So what does worry me is even in the best of circumstances, you know, how do you get a young workforce to get the judgment and the experience needed for a manager and a leader level if that lower level of work is being taken by AI for efficiency's sake and if they're not having the experience in practice, then what is that doing to our long-term pipeline? Um, I do know that relational stuff is the stuff that AI can't take on. So lean into relational. But if they don't have the experience to exercise judgment and make mistakes, then what's that going to do long term?

That worries me a lot.

Well, and it's it's short- termist thinking is going to be the downfall on that, isn't it? So, I completely agree and decisions that leaders need to start making now is as equal around future safeguarding of the integrity and the autonomy of the organization versus efficiencies today. Because there's one very credible argument to your point of we're going to have to invest in people which will be less efficient but we know that they will be the ones and they have to go through a journey that isn't as efficient but is arguably more effective in the future in terms of being able to apply that experience and that judgment. I hope and in a glass half full perspective is that will happen and maybe it will happen but as a as a byproduct to a kind of sense of well we don't we're not quite ready to relinquish complete control right and so there'll be an element of well we're going to keep recruiting because we like people around us because that's our safe space and the comfort that we know whilst we look to the autonomy side of it through AI but hopefully that will take place and leaders will start making those calculated decisions but it will mean there's less jobs than there were before as well as the fact that the industry is shrinking in terms of well the industry the formal structured architecture is not going to be as big as it once was.

Yeah, I want to stay with this students thing for a bit. There are two things they come to my mind here. The first one I acknowledge there are certain roles or tasks they will change most probably all tasks they will change workflows will change and all that but I am seeing already certain roles appearing for the time being at global level at headquarter level a bit at regional level I'm seeing a new roles created around AI digitalization um data analysis and data intelligence and all that so I don't want to just say that roles are or tasks are disappearing because I'm also seeing others coming up. The second thing that I want to say here which is it's something happened with me and with a friend also and I find it so interesting.

I was working on a project and um the team that I'm working with they assigned to me an assistant and you know we started collaborating or certain things but at some point I was like I actually prefer not having an assistant and when I was thinking about why I reached that conclusion and my friend had literally exactly the same thing. She decided that I prefer actually not having assistants or interns or etc. because we reached the conclusion that the level of efforts and the time it's taking us to orient train uh engage coordinate supervise an assistant or an intern. It's actually easier to leverage one of those AI agents and faster. And that made me start thinking about what do we want from those roles, what type of skills we want from our leaders and those tasks like you know minutes of meetings, drafting a repo, drafting an email, following up uh with uh emails, automating XY Z etc.

Like those entrylevel jobs or assistants or interns or a student assistant and all those like the definition of what they bring to the table and their role and what they might learn from an organization or a leader or something. It's totally different than before to a level where it start I don't know like I told you I felt like I actually preferred doing it or prompting one of those AI agents to do it and I started noticing that more and more.

So I think that's the tricky part for those students or interns or those who are trying to enter now right because let's play that out a little bit. I mean that makes complete sense and the logic and maybe this was flawed logic in the past was that the benefit to that intern or that at that assistant to being in the room taking the notes was that they were in the room. They were listening, right? They were absorbing the culture. They were absorbing the language. They were absorbing things that maybe they only grasped like a percentage of because they didn't see the big picture, but just by being in that space, they were getting inducted into the business. And so that was part of their um their learning journey.

Even as they were doing, you know, a valuable skill and they were using they were doing something that was necessary. Now, if AI can take that, the question is, is that true? Was that just something we said to make ourselves feel better, or is it valuable for them to be in the room? And then the other the devil's advocate of me says, well, but yeah, then they're just learning the same power structures that we all say need to change and to be part of that.

I again this is evolving. So, I'm just talking the present and what's happening right now. in those this example that I mentioned to you for me it was better that the assistant sits observe learn engage with us and then prompt those AI agents to do this you know minutes or emails or calendars or XY Z so previously I feel they were spending so much time at doing those administrative tasks and then they are learning the administrative task more than the actual job

okay so you're saying they should still be we should still have them the role should still exist they should still be in the room just their role and their value should is better placed using you know uh refining their judgment and then rather than just taking the notes.

Excellent question. What I'm saying is that we need to distinguish between purpose and task. Mhm. the purpose of the assistant or the project manager or the coordinator or a specialist or XY Z to do let's say overseeing the flow overseeing a project cycle learning XY Z while engaging with those different team members here and there and focusing at that overall scope the task of writing an email writing a report setting calendar invitations etc that's changing I actually I'm in favor of changing that so I'm saying that the role shouldn't disappear. The purpose should remain and work on it further. The task, yes, some tasks they have to disappear. They are just like we are putting so much energy there and it's not really needed anymore.

I mean, it speaks to my efficiencies point as well though, right? If you've got the people running the budgets and they'll be like, we're paying this person x amount per month, per year. What are they doing for us? and the purpose of oh they're sitting in the in the room to learn the culture and the and the jud and build their judgment. that's hard to put a monetary value on. And so the people and I'm I'm on your side on this, but I can see very easily how that narrative is going to be a very hard sell when you're trying to get

when you when you were talking before, Thomas, I was thinking especially now because the market is so flooded with mid AI offers. Well, no midle people who need jobs. And so there's going to be this artificial there's going to be this time where some of the roles are taken by people that have the judgment. their hard one judgment and decision-m they have and so all of a sudden there's gonna and so the people that are graduating right now are in an even tougher spot frankly. Yeah. And then you know five to 10 years from now there's going to be the where's the pipeline because it's

just gone. Well it's going to be longer than 5 to 10 I think because you'll end up because people are going but the reason it'll be extended is because people are going to just stay put. You're going to have a lot of people just not looking to move right because they're like I don't know where I'm going to go. So they're not opening up and freeing up spaces.

Yeah. So but on the other hand and I'm I'm being realistic here now it's been what four years 3 years four years with this AI wave and the trend and all those charging and cloud and Gemini and all those things right now people are in general the overall they are using it to write emails draft report or proposal or something like that so we didn't really in the sector I'm not talking outside is totally different story but inside even organizations they still until Now they barely have policies or governance in place. They are the best case scenario they are jumping to co-pilot or something. So until now I don't think [laughter] you know I'm just being realistic and I have to admit like my level of engagement with AI and AI agents and all that.

People usually get shocked when they see me prompting those AI agents and AI agents moving around doing stuff because they are like the maximum right now is fixing grammar, writing a paragraph, writing an email. You know what I mean? Like I want to be realistic also.

I mean, let's be honest, the aid sector is still it's it's a truck and truck model that's just kind of become a little bit more efficient and effective and better standards around it. The actual mindset of who we are as organizations has not really changed since the 80s and the '9s. We just got better at it. Um but and it's I remember it's been 10 years ago or so we were trying I was working with one of the bigs and we were trying to get one of the big tech companies to come on board at the time and so we were lobbying them and trying to court them and trying and their response to us was you're too like dinosaurs. You're too slow. We don't want to just write you a check.

We want to come in and help you deliver and change and reform the way you work. And that was just far too scary a proposition. So we walked away. Didn't take it. I mean 100%

agree and I do worry that this the traditional sector is missing the boat in shaping some of this stuff because we are the ones that are the would be should be the ones that are saying okay what about all the biases what about the data what about the perspectives what about all of these things and because we're like worried about all of the things and not and kind of being a little bit averse to using AI to its full potential I do feel like we're missing a boat in influence However, this is also an open space. It's like open game right now. The whole like we all know there's not going to be one dominant system coming out of this. So there could be very well like we could get bypassed by you know youth civil society.

All these different global south civil society that just jumps over the dinosaurs and keeps moving. Let's welcome it. I mean absolutely it needs to happen, right? That's exactly what's going on.

Then we can learn from it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think Okay, I'm going to put a I don't I don't usually talk about this in public, but I do I feel worried and concerned that right now even in what we call the sector there are multiple movements that are a bit loud. They are getting attention but unfortunately at least from my perspective they don't fully represent what I thought we stand by and there are other movements also within under the umbrella of the sector or within the sector they are getting too political and when I see what they put on social media I sometimes feel like okay this is tricky because is this political or this is like I get mixed I don't know I don't know how to brand it but I get a bit worried and at the same time when I watch and listen to famous podcasts on both sides and I hear how they are criticizing NOS's international NOS's I also get worried about the reputation, the impression and I feel that we are all being branded in a specific category.

So, so I'm a bit worried that at some point this sector might be multiple movements. Each one operates under different values and principles. Each one operate under in different ways. Each one wants to achieve a direction that actually is not under the umbrella of a humanity and the other things that I thought that was you know what we stood by and in direct way they are going to affect each other harm each other shut down each other and then all of us we will be in big problem and as I mentioned I really don't talk about this in public I get worried about it I think about it so much because sometimes I feel like oh I don't belong to this. Other times I feel like, oh, I fully don't agree with this.

But then I feel like, oh, am I now responsible to defend that? But it's totally not in line with what I thought that we are all standing by when it comes to values and all that. I'm saying this and I'm trying actually to measure what I'm saying. But

yeah, you

you make some really valid points and I think you're absolutely right in terms of the questions to ask there, but this is this is personal for you.

It's the thing is that you know also like you know I don't talk I told you I don't talk about this I get bullied so much I get so many messages u people want me to ask to talk about specific topics use my platform for a specific topic advocate for a specific thing but so many times I feel like but wait a second I don't fully agree and other I think because there are so many people they follow me on LinkedIn and I have kind of like a network and I engage with people outside the sector also It's a bit tricky. It's it's really tricky. And I think also people assume things about me because I come from Middle East and because of my name and how I look and my background.

So sometimes they want to push me a bit into a political direction and I fully understand that. But it gets a bit tricky because the political scene in the US or Europe it's totally different than the political scene in Middle East and also like you know in Asia and all that. But adding to that, I really understand people's frustration with certain things. Like today, I was reading on the news like the humanitarian development sector news all those discussions around technology and AI and data companies and all that and yeah, a large percentage I agree with that. But okay, can we do something within the sector? Can we bring our alternative like can we work on a digital solution that could bring us together, you know?

So I sometimes feel like also the tone and the language and the approach I don't fully align with. So that's why it's it's it's really tricky and sometimes yes as you said it is personal because sometimes I feel like ah uh I need to think especially that I engage with you know I speak a lot about himarian diplomacy and part of this himarian diplomacy or that himarian diplomat that I put I engage with people who fully disagree with the himarian development sector fully not in favor of NOS's fully not a fan of how we do things because I try to build those bridges so you If I want to build that bridge, I can't go and be like, I am in full attack now because I disagree with you.

So, it's it's a bit tricky.

So, without specific examples, and I'm not asking you for you specific examples, it's kind of like I think I understand the direction you're going in, but so I'm going to say what this brings to mind for me, and maybe it's completely different from where you're going, Ollie, so feel free to say that. But what I've been thinking about a lot is around yes, we don't all have to we don't all have to um agree or there doesn't have to be pure coherence for us to coordinate and communicate with each other. And I think that's just a baseline, right? There's no way that we're all going to have coherence in our ideas or we're all going to agree. But in order to kind of have make an impact influence the direction of frankly where you know the global order is going we can even pull it back from the sector the direction the global order is going for civil society to have an influence on that we need to be able to reinforce each other and I'm hearing stories of you know going into global spaces where we are tripping over each other rather than saying like I disagree on this point but let's reinforce each other on the messaging and the narrative we are at we are you know uh contradicting each And that just creates noise and undermines our ability for collective action and collective influence.

Now, that being said, all of what I just said makes an assumption that we all hold the same progressive values, if you will. And that's where I'm not sure about if that's true or not. If we all generally have the same umbrella progressive values that civil society is a public good, we are trying to move for more inclusive open, you know, horizontal world, etc. Then we can all disagree on the hows and the degrees and we can all say well my role is to hammer from the outside and my role is to change from the inside and all these things but if the values are different then that's a different conversation cuz you're right as a sector I don't think we have wrestled with the tension of do you bring in the opposing side for healthy debate and conversation or do you shut them Now

I have so many things to say here but I will try to be simple. Um so first without going into details they are private truth and public lies and I think there are those corridor conversations at HQ or country level country operations. We've all had them. We've all been part of them. We all agreed on certain things but in public it was a bit different conversation and what I'm saying here is a bit similar to that. So for example where we all stand on localization we are not actually all in on the same page on that or where we stand on deconalization or digitalization or the or agency's effectiveness at country level or like the moment you open that Pandora box there are so many things that I brand around private truth public lies.

Uh the second thing that I want I want to mention here we all have different roles to play. Mhm. Some of us has to keep the door open. Some it's fine. They will close it. But those who has to keep the door open, they have a role to play. As I mentioned this, I like to call it a himarian diplomacy to be able to build bridges or engage or communicate or something. And you know, if I want, let me go back to my country operations experience. when we were negotiating with the Taliban the access women access to service women participation access to locations etc the organization that they were leading there were those organization who kept a door open engaging there now in Sudan it's the same story in Yala Dur the same there are some organization they keep the door open and that help us engagement with armed groups the factor authorities XY Z we are not fully in line with principles but some of us has to keep the door open.

And you know, I get I get this private question so much from people in Syria a lot throughout the years. I always get this question. How come I managed to work in Damascus, North Syria, northeast Syria? I worked in all the hops. It's rare to see a profile that worked in all the hops. Uh I'm like especially at the time when I was working in the country. But the main reason is because I had to do put some measurements in place especially on what I communicate on public on social media and all that. And I fully understand people putting things on social media, LinkedIn or Instagram or Tik Tok or etc. and they are expressing an opinion of frustration or etc. But sometimes you need some people who would be a bit more measured in that because they are going to help the wider community in a different way.

One day hopefully in the future I will be able to speak about all those things the bridges that I am building

because of that. But yeah, I would it's fine. I'll get home messages. It's the trade-offs between your own personal values and how you personally feel and the role that you play. And it's constant tension of kind of how to walk that line. And a lot of the bridge building happens quietly behind the scenes is all I'll say. And I want to hear what you have to say, Thomas. But the other thing I'll say is that you mentioned roles. You both know I love the social eco change social change ecosystem uh framework. And maybe we can put the link in wherever this goes out on the internet um in the interweb. Sounds so digital,

so techy um for people to take a look at. Um fascinating conversation and thanks for bringing it in, Ali. Um what I'm hearing is the age-old dilemma debate between principled humanitarian action and the humanitarian imperative which can also be described as pragmatism of humanitarianism. Right? And for decades when the aid sector went sort of unchallenged, you we always used to be able to, you know, hold a principled stance until we didn't want to. And then we just use the imperative as a kind of catch all waiver and we'd move in and deliver there. And we were always able to message and respond in crisis as exceptions, right? And I think what we're witnessing at the moment is a conflation of multiple issues. But one of the issues coming into the play here is there's too many exceptions taking place at any one time that they've now become the norm.

And so we're we're uncomfortable therefore as to how we deal with that and how we navigate that because we're we don't want to lose the principles because the principles still matter. right now. For one, I think the age old I mean the principles what we haven't talked about the principles at length in this pod for if ever, right? But they're always talked about as a group, as a collective. And yet inherently they are in tension with each other. And so we don't do ourselves any service by not really engaging with what the principles mean and tackling them one-on-one and understanding how they work and where we are or are not able to stray away from them at all.

But I want to come back to this point on different actors and different players and now we're the ecosystem of aid and the humanitarian space and who wants to have a part of and where you draw the line around humanitarian space and I'll use a scenario a story from Mosamb beek 2019 cyclone Idi and then couple of weeks later cyclone Kenneth right the two largest cyclones to strike in the southern hemisphere on record they've not been beaten yet um I was there first wave We've we're battling out from Maputo trying to understand you everything you have in the first few days of this sort of thing right where you got communications black hole you make speculations you try everything you can you jump on any boat and any helicopter you can to get in.

We eventually get into Bayra and we end up into a settlement a place a bit of open land that people that had been flooded had suddenly kind of found a bit of space to stay dry on and had put up whatever they could find to as a bit of shelter. and we're doing what we should do should do what we do. We're walking around. We're talking to the community leaders and we're trying to gather an understanding as to what their situation is like and asking them where their needs are and it's fairly typical responses. As we arrive to do that, right, a truck arrives and in the time that it took us to walk around and have those conversations, the people in this truck had set up a health facility.

They started treating patients and they had a drone and they had a comm's team there marketing and capturing imagery and they were they were doing firstphase emergency response. We weren't we were waiting for permission and we had to have the information and gather the data before we could then decide what to do and you know we had to have all that before we could raise the money to pay for the helicopters to fly it all in and blah. They just did it on the side of the truck. China aid right now. China would be one of those players that we are uncomfortable having in the in the club part of the community right there. I can't despite their motivations and whatever they may be and I can't speak credibly to what China's motivations are they were doing humanitarian response they were saving lives and I can't critique the activities that were taking place in Bay on that day they were great it was of high standard should so my point here is if the outcomes if the impact of the action is saving lives where's the where do we I find it uncomfortable holding a moral high ground, a mole stance to say you can't come into the club because of this.

Oh, and because you can't come into our club, you can't do it anyway. That to me is the definition of shooting ourselves in the foot. I'm I'm massively uncomfortable with that. And so what it tells me is there's a mindset block. There's a sh there's a shift that needs to take place. And that shift is what we have spoken about a lot on this pod which is around letting go of the way things used to be done and about engaging in a new way and a new system moving forward. And I've just been writing a blog that will come out soon on contentment which is interesting. But in it I talk about um this notion of we've got to somehow get from there to there.

And I talk about somehow being this piece that is used too frequently now. the sentiment is there. And so by sentiment being there, it to me signifies the acknowledgement that the shift needs to take place. But we use the word somehow or a variant of it because we're uncomfortable saying I don't know how to do that. And so for me, the somehow or the raising of a question of the question is how we do that is a it's a plea. It's an ask. It's a someone help us. Someone give me the answer. or it's a guy's it's a softer way of being able to say I don't know what to do but until we can get to the point where people are willing to say I don't know what to do I don't know how we can then move forward into actually answering that somehow question and it's a lot of the work that I end up doing with people is work is creating those structured thinking spaces to not be able to say somehow to be able to say this is what we do this is how we do it but it takes a huge amount of self-awareness and it takes a huge admission on a leader's behalf enough to say we need that space.

We need to go into that space of structured thinking to be able to work our way through this. Otherwise, the guise of familiarity is put forward as certainty and that's just managed decline and a hiding to nothing.

Ali, I'd like to I'm I'm trying to find a way to tie all this together, but I want to hear your thoughts because I can see you thinking.

It's you know I have going back to the conversation around students when I speak with them I try to explain that in a way or another we go into the details but I try to explain that you have to be able to have some kind of independent thinking and look who you are surrounding yourself with the main reason why I'm saying that because when you are in an institution you know you start seeing everything through the lens of that institution when you are in a I don't know a group of friends and you socialize with them all the time or colleagues or etc. You start seeing things from that lens and suddenly you start building opinions based on assumptions or certain things and you don't support a group or an organization or an approach or something but it's mainly because it's all those conversation in that institution or etc accumulated into that.

So I always say that you have to be able to have that independent thinking. The second thing and I like what you mentioned Thomas about that journey and that aid from China and where would you what's your position on that and being uncomfortable and oh being comfortable and all those things but I think it's you know if I look back 15 years ago when I was taking small assignments here and there and starting there were certain things when I look at them right now I fully disagree with I'm like how did I do that why did I do that and you know and also when I think about certain program designs six years ago. I'm like why we did it that way? So I think at the present sometimes you don't really realize you have to let the time pass and then look that's why I say I think it's this generational thing now this definition of what does it mean to be a humanitarian how it looks like and all that and maybe the student those new the new I don't know what to call them I don't want to call them young professionals because that's what they are called here the emerging leaders or etc you know they are trying to define that

have you thought of a way to tie it together Kim I So I'm usually I can usually create a frame for anything. I've got one.

Well, so let me let me give you a stab and then I want to hear what you Well, so all right,

maybe it's not maybe it's not a frame, but what you made me think, Ali, is going back to the students. If I'm a student in a university right now and I want to get into this space, whether it's development or humanitarian or peace buildingilding or what have you, it has worried me, you know, what is the curriculum that they're learning? And it's no fault of any curriculum. It's just the pace of change is so fast that the real like how do they know what the reality is when we are just having this conversation for the last 30 plus minutes and it feels more tangled than clear and that's okay but it does it does cons I it concerns me that there are going to be students coming out into the sector and we started this conversation by saying pretty you know practically will there be jobs for them?

What will those jobs look like? What skills do they need? But by the end of it, my question is what is their understanding? How do they need to think? What is their understanding of the different spaces that exist? And then how do they code switch so that they can understand? And as you said, Ali, occupy different spaces for a well-rounded perspective even once they're in. That's a big question that I think is not a 90-minute presentation to give to like everything. It comes down to that we talk about it comes down to what are the skills, capacities and relational, you know, side of things that for people um to kind of come into this space with I much would rather someone who asks a good question or who admits they don't know what they're doing than someone that comes in with a five-point plan.

All right. What's your final frame, Thomas?

Well, firstly, I think what it was this line from the lecturer at the uni that I spoke at. Um his question to me was as it wasn't to me it was it was him articulating his thoughts was as educators we need to understand what we're educating people on right and that's exactly that point so at least he is grappling with that one right so I'm confident that others would be in the same space as well um no but the way I was going to kind of tie this together um was this leadership dialogues program that I've been running we set it up for exe tech leaners, right? CEOs, seauite, it was designed there because they were the target audience as we've spoken about a lot here that are the ones holding positions of influence and authority and the ones that if they wanted to would benefit from a reflective space.

Now, somebody who went through that then appreciated the journey so much that they wanted to put it on for a network of emerging leaders that they oversaw as well. So we did we ran that and it was fascinating and running parallel cohorts was really interesting in terms of seeing same content CEO response uh emerging leader response very interesting but the to do the emerging leader version we had to tweak the content somewhat right some of it needed a bit of shifting the framing needed to be positioned a little bit differently so I rewrote the manual and I showed the introduction of the manual to my wife my wife's senior leader in one of the bigger NGOs's and uh and she read it And she went, "Wow, I'm jealous." I said, "You're jealous.

Tell me, why are you jealous?" She's She's jealous of the emerging leaders because they didn't need to unlearn to relearn, right? They just needed to learn straight off the bat. And the opening module, the opening piece we do is talking about leadership identity and what influences and what informs leadership identity. And the challenge that we put forward is leadership is as much a personal trait as it is a response to an environment, right? in an external space. And you can chart kind of vogues of leadership over time and we present one of those in terms of looking over the last century. And if you understand that and you start to understand that the leaders that are currently in the exact level positions, they learn to leadership identity based off an environment that doesn't exist anymore.

Correct.

Model.

Exactly. And so rather and but what's important for the emerging leaders and the same would apply for students is they need to understand that the projection of leadership that they are being exposed to because that's the leadership identity of people at the top that's not necessarily the same identity that they need to occupy and that they need to hold moving forward. So inviting that critique, holding a space for them to understand that and to then be able to discern what's relevant, what's not relevant and be able to move that forward. That is where students today need to be. That's where educators of today need to be holding space for emerging and student leaders. And I would say it's also a skill and in its awareness that the current CEO seuite execs need to understand to hold space for the those lower down the ranks so that they're not just molding people in their own model.

Right.

Well, this brings us back to ego and all the rest of it as well. Well, and that's what that gets us back to something that we talked about earlier, which is can those in the existing system that are trying to bridge over and transition over hold the space for new people, whether that's emerging civil society organizations, whether that's young people to leapfrog over in AI and leadership skills and everything and not have an intern in the room to learn the language, but hold the space for the intern to do what they do best, which is come in and maybe kind of offer new ideas that make us uncomfortable. That requires

a high level of maturity. Huge, huge. And it needs to happen. The only way it can take place is if people have got a settled, calm nervous system. If their nervous systems are activated, then they're going to be defensive and they're going to see threat everywhere. Calm the nerves.

Most of my day is working on my nervous system, Thomas. [laughter]

There we go. All right. Should we end it there today?

Oh, I want to say I bought this t-shirt for you, Ken. I love it. [laughter] Oh yeah. Oh, I love it. The link. I want to buy it. I was going to say as I sit here with my nervous system holding my grounding crystal, I wish all of you listening a

um a regulated nervous system out there. Indeed. 100%. Thank you both. Always a pleasure. We'll speak to you soon.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.