What This Space Is About, Leadership and Reflections

No, let's let's let's let's just we're we're having a chat the Sector Debrief. We sly call it a chance to debrief the sector, don't we? Um Ali, do you want to introduce yourself so everyone can know who you are? Um you know this is the question that I sometimes I'm like I wish I just skipped this question and people couldn't just like check my profile or something but um okay um I think I will go back to the start and I will try to be short. Um I started in the sector as a volunteer. I had several years joining local organization voluntary teams. I had no clue people get paid for that. Um and then one day I was in one organization and uh they wanted to um to pay for the things that I was doing and I was like huh.

So I took my first role with uh WHO and then after that I spent several years uh as a national staff local staff mainly doing um mental health psychosocial support protection. Then after that I started going into international roles. I had u around 13 deployments in Asia, Middle East, Africa. Um and then I felt like I want to do something a bit different. I want to focus at global level and try to make a change. So I stepped into headquarter roles and from there my story took a different direction. So I started working mainly on governance policies and I like this u engineering part of the process uh like looking at a process or policy or a tool and try to make it simple or easy to use or um trying to make change from that side.

Um and yeah I like so much writing, reflecting, thinking, uh drinking coffee and speaking with other people who has similar mindset. That's who I am.

Excellent. Great. Thanks Ali. Uh Kim, who are you? Who am I? I am Kim. I'm sitting in my basement with my dog in Washington DC. Um where did I start? So, I always kind of knew that I wanted to work in international development, although I don't know that I knew what that meant at the time. Um, in 200 n myself and my husband went and we worked with a program in Namibia and um and realized very quickly that I wasn't any use to anybody. I was kind of like following people around. I didn't speak the language. Um, I think they appreciated that someone from the US was there, but I wasn't really adding anything. And so I kind of changed my role to sit in the office and build databases and spreadsheets cuz I was like, that's what is a good use of my skill set even though it's not as fun or interesting.

And I think that's when I realized that like the back office that I belonged in kind of the back office operations bid that's where I could use my kind of superpowers to the to help. And so I've been with Homentum for over 10 years doing all of the things doing operations, doing membership, doing events, doing learning um and design, doing training. And I've kind of like found this nexus where I've been kind of discovering how do you find out what your superpower is and then use it for good. And it's kind of been this sweet spot in this not great year of realizing holding space, learning and design, systems thinking, knowledge harvesting to help people make sense of this moment. So that's kind of um that's who I am, I guess, and what I do.

Excellent. What about you? Me? Um I'm Thomas. I'm I'm sat in a wood cabin in rural Somerset, UK at the moment. Um but I only moved back to the UK a year ago. Uh I spent prior to that 14 years living abroad. Um East Africa primarily and I started my career as a photographer. You see the cameras in the back there somewhere. amazed.

Um, and that was that was out of a desire to see the world and to tell the stories of the world for the people back home here some um and I very quickly had a tension with the journalistic principle of bearing witness and only bearing witness and I was like if I'm here I might as well do something other than just take a photo as well. And so I started moving into NOS's into operations, volunteering from the UK, rapid onset, firstphase response, natural disasters, conflicts, all the rest of it. And then moved to South Sudan. Um, and I was living that charactured quintessential white European international aid worker life in remote rural South Sudan. Um, and was there when the civil war broke out in 2013.

um ran the crossline operations for the big INGO, set up some of the PC sites in UN bases and all the unprecedentedness of that and then moved to Nairobi um because I was burnt out. I'd had I just wasn't serving anybody any good in South Sudan any longer and had to go through therapy and counseling and all the rest of it. I'm not afraid to say that. Um, and then yeah, worked in Nairobi for Save the Children until last year. And it was that journey that kind of told me it was time to get out. Um, because the model of aid that bigo, white international staff are going in and overseeing responses all over the world. It just was for a bygone era. We'd moved on.

the world had changed, right? And it was in that journey and it was in the pivoting of the role that I held and trying to change the way that the organization was manifesting and identifying with humanitarianism that led me into leadership development, organizational development, coaching, mentoring, which is where I am now. and the exploration of critique of the sector and a discovery of the what next is where I met you two wonderful people um through the pledge for change and yeah we've started talking and we've enjoyed it and we've had more conversations and we enjoyed those and Ali you had the idea of maybe other people might want to listen to it um so we said we'd record it and see what people think so here we are today

I think you know I think The thing about the podcasts in the sector that you feel like they are so polished like you feel like they are statements and you get the sense that those people are really smart and it's like a lecture and I am sometimes like I want to know the person behind that. Yeah. So when we started our conversations I was like h that's interesting. I would like to hear to some people talking about these things and the thing is that you know the what I noticed since the beginning of this year is that people they show strength which is nice it's good I like that but I also want some kind of vulnerability I want to know that you know I am like there are other people feeling the same that you know maybe confused maybe sad maybe frustrated maybe angry maybe and then in our conversations and with and in all the working groups and discussions with Kim also.

I was like those are really interesting conversation. They are so human and we are being able to express ourselves and all that. So I like that we are actually making it happen.

I don't know though. I don't know. I think what people need right now is the vulnerability and the realness. I think people are sick of the talking points and I don't just mean in webinars and things like that. I mean in the even outside of our sector people are this isn't working. the system isn't working again not just the development humanitarian sector and people want realness and I think we were all discussing we've all been in on many webinar panels in our lives and I always find that the prep calls are the most interesting because you get a bunch of interesting people around you throw a question out and everyone's debating things and then for whatever reason you get into a formal webinar setting and things become stilted and formal and no one wants to kind of talk over each other and Thomas you were saying it's the same in the debrief call and then everything gets kind of uh I don't know flat [laughter] and then after the debrief call it starts again and so we were like let's just do let's do the book end let's skip the middle part [laughter] and have the conversation I um and see what happens I don't know I think that is what people are looking for we don't have any answers I mean in all three of our describing ourselves I hear tension we are very open to wrestling with tension and not knowing what the answer is.

And I think anyone in this day and age that pretends they know the answer is I don't know that I trust them.

Well, I think that's that's the mistake off the bat, isn't it? That people are looking for a solution and the complexity of the world means by definition there is no single solution. It's we got to stop looking for the answer, right? Um but it's it's wrapped up in all of that is also identity struggles of who we are, right? because I think by people particularly in this sector coming together we're we're quite valuedriven individuals um and for decades people with the value set and the desires to enact the values of humanity that I think we clearly all demonstrate and others have had a clear entry point of multilateral system to co where you exercise that right and now that's crumbling away um and even people still in that sector and I'm coaching a few people in the sector still whose jobs are not at risk.

They're going, I don't know if this is where I can have impact any longer.

Yeah. And they're asking where I can go next. And that's the tension. That's the lived struggles that people are going through. and the grief and the disillusionment of all of that is so real because it's like I gave my life to this and now all of a sudden like the bottoms but then on the other side I'm hearing from people that are like that are like no this we've always known this is not new we don't feel grief we feel excited

right and it's that space of creativity in the newness which is where the answers are going to come next yeah I think I what I find super interesting that people reacted in different ways especially this year with the funding cut and what happened with USA ID and all the different things. But I really appreciate the people who you know spoke up were open about what they were facing and also reflected like if I want to put in one single word one of the most powerful moments or tools or techniques that I notice people using this year is reflection because I could see how things would take totally different direction after they pause and think. Yeah. And it's it's one of the biggest fascinating learning journeys for me this year having been working outside and inside the sector still is that those leadership struggles happen across the sector.

It doesn't matter. The subject matter changes but the manifestation of the leadership challenge is the same. And it's a almost a refusal or a lack of awareness to stop, pause and reflect. It's no, we've got to keep busy. The answer is in busyiness. The answer is in finding a solution and working your way methodically towards that because that's the reductionist process that's got us to where we are today. But that's as you say, Ali, that you've got to slow down, stop, pause, reflect, and give that cognitive part of your brain the space to think and not be driven by that survivalist mentality that's triggered by the lizard brain part, right?

It sounds easy, but it I will say it is a hard switch. I mean, I am I as I said, like I've worn the project manager hat. I've worn the trainer hat. I've worn all these different hats. And this year of all the years, it's realizing that you cannot divorce the personal and the system and the process. And it's I mean, when you say it out loud, of course not. We know all the different models and all the different things, but in like in reality, you cannot do it. And I've held space where I've gotten called out for, hey, you know, we didn't do a pulse check. We didn't do a grounding to begin with. And what I'm taking away from that is people need to be seen first as humans before we dive in because I'm so used to, you know, when you're training a technical topic, you dive right in to the technical topic because that's why people are there.

It is a professional setting. But when you're talking about systems change and navigating these types of things, there is you cannot just dive right in. You have to really start with the person as we just did because everyone's bringing their true selves to it.

It's fascinating. I did a Sorry, Ali. Go on. You go. No, I just wanted to mention one thing about system change. I one of the things that changed my perspective looking and thinking about systems is the moment I started looking at systems as people and the moment I started looking at transformation as a human

because then I realized that if system is people then people could change and system could change then we could do that and the moment we come to the conclusion that all our problems they are humanmade problems then they could be also solved by a human. So I think when I for example one those are one of the things that made me think about systems in totally different way. So I started chasing the human element in decisions and in thinking and in processes and all that. And the more like me and my team and the people I was working with, we started looking at systems from the people and the human perspective, we were able to achieve more and make that change.

And um Kim, you and I have spoken back and forth about this a little bit. there's a natural sort of question people are asking as we're discussing what's next. It's it's what kind of leaders do we need next? And to this point about humans and people being people, that question, it can it can trigger a defensive response by the current incumbent leaders because by asking that question, you're thinking, they're thinking, well, does that mean I'm not the right leader because I've been the leader to date. And so I think there's a subtle nuance shift that can take place there between what's the future leaders versus what's the future leadership because leadership mindsets and mentalities and attitudes and behaviors have occupied a certain manifestation for the last few decades and the next era is going to need a certain leadership approach and style.

And if the individual incumbents can pivot and shift and recognize that through reflective processes, maybe a bit of external coaching support or other areas to help them sort of process those thoughts, then they are the right leaders to have in place, right?

Yeah. No, Thomas, you wrote a whole thing out. You kind of laid that out for me and it was actually a big aha moment for me because I had been saying like the leaders the leaders the leaders, you know, they're not they're not the leaders that we need right now. But you're right, it is a significant mind shift to say, "Okay, no, it's actually the behaviors." Because what that means is some of the leaders are going to be able to make the transition. They're going to be able to adapt, get the, you know, maybe they already have those skills. They just didn't know that they could bring their true selves to the workplace. And some of them aren't going to be able to. And that's the real's okay, too.

But I think putting it in the behaviors because then you move away from yes the defense to the kind of like discovery mode of oh what are the behaviors like we don't need hero leadership where everyone knows everything because no one knows anything right now and we need to be able to um be really self-aware and be able to self-regulate and co-regulate those around us because no one is okay right now. [laughter] So like what are the things that we need? I think that's going to be a big conversation in 2026.

Yeah. I the first thing comes to my mind is now after this I will start thinking about what does leadership means because we use this word so much. Yeah, but I think one of the um one of the things that I notic in the sector we've misunderstood so much is leadership because in a way or another and I'm not sure why but we linked leadership to structure. So we follow someone orders or decisions or tasks because maybe they are higher in the structure maybe because they have a title in I don't know HQ or the region or senior management or XY Z but from my personal experience um the leaders that for me define the meaning of leadership are those who I met they don't even have titles um We followed them.

We trusted them. We followed their direction because we had that human connection with them because we trusted them because we felt they care about each other and they care about the cause and all that. So didn't even have titles. So I think when we speak about leadership, of course it's in a way or another. Of course it's also linked to the governance and the structure and all that. But to be honest, those who uh stayed when funding disappeared or when organizations left or when they lost titles, they you know they were leaders because they cared about each other and the community and the cause. And I think that's a really important point that sense that leaders care. And I do think there's a lot of the critique that's that's been bounded about for years now of the sector, particularly in the sort of localization based conversations, I think leaves a taste that decisions were made historically with mal intent.

And I don't think there ever was decisions taken by leaders with mal intent. Consequences have led a pathway that now we need to maybe course correct. and circumstances are now given an opportunity for that. Um, but I think we leaders need to feel that they've done a good thing in the past.

Here's the thing though, like I'm in the room with people struggling all the time to do the right thing and like how to how do you live your values when there's all of these tensions and competing motivations? I mean the structure of the incentives are competing motivations and that's just the re that we've known that for decades, right? But I think like what you wrote in your piece Ali which I think really resonated is yeah everyone who I meet has the best of intentions and that's not nothing like it's easy to be like well intentions and you know an impact 100%. It's not enough but it's not nothing and I think if we can kind of use that I don't know what to do with it I guess is my point because next year there's going to be a lot of people who are tiredder than this year.

they're, you know, they're only going to get more tired and they still have the good intent. They still want to do good, but they're questioning themselves, which is really good. But how do we kind of like harness that? How do you use that and give people direction? And I know that like you kind of reflected on that, Ali, like that you're seeing it and maybe we just need to do better at like seeing the small things. Yeah, that's um I think these things when I think about them, they are linked to so many stories and so many people I met and places and organizations and all that. But to be honest, I think that's part of the things that I'm trying to do and both of you trying to do and those who are with us in the same boat both trying to do.

I think trying to empower those leaders or individuals within this system because I just couldn't find one size fits all or one solution. It's I think it's impossible. Um and to be honest and totally transparent even in my own journey within this sector. I made tons of mistakes. So many. and to be honest I learned with those mistakes more than the things that I did in a good way. Um so I think in a way or another it's just about you know when we are um having a challenge or failing or there is a mistake or something like that to have that time to reflect and think and then um think about the direction um from there.

There was this um one of my ex-colagues um he's a senior manager in a country operation and I was speaking with him the other day and he was telling me about all the things that he has to deal with the emergency situation funding cut he has to terminate contracts close some offices and some donors pressuring for something and all that and we were talking about what's the success formula like is there like some kind of like formula or something and Then we came with something like um challenges or pain plus reflection equals success something like that like you know you go through a challenge you sit you reflect you think and then you proceed from there but to be honest aside from that I mean we are going to make mistakes and we have to empower those people who are trying to learn and continue in this.

You know what's hard about that, and I think I found it this year, is in trying to do that, I don't I think you're right, Ali, is that it requires you to be kind of open all the time, which is a lot. Like, it's exhaust. It's really easy to kind of like follow the process. I know what I'm doing. Like, I'm a professional. But to always be open and questioning yourself in a good way takes a lot.

It does. It's a muscle. It takes a lot of mental exertion, but it also it takes the a grappling and a comfort with discomfort. Yes. Those are not easy thoughts to have, right? And that's where I think we then get we then get scared, right? And there's, you know, the psychoynamic theory about this, right? You kind of you meet a problem and you have an instinctive judgment around that. And that's what we and I say we from a westernized point of view but a wei that has cultivated an industrybased culture piece there. We've rewarded experience and judgment and now and with seniority haven't we? Right. And so we've promoted people into positions because we've said we like the way you solve problems. Your judgment is something we will invest in.

Yeah. But then when you ask people to then kind of look beyond that initial reaction to a problem and to start critiquing suddenly they're entering a space where this is not what I've been successful with in the past right and so it gets difficult and there's a pressure to always you know the interconnectivity of the world and the time the tempo of life these days means you can't necessarily or it's harder should I say not impossible it's harder to cultivate that carve about that space to think. And so you got to have immediate responses and there when you get into that difficult space and you have that time to reflect sometimes you realize it's not actually our problem to solve

and then you and then you get into questions of relevance and identity and existential. it. Let's just go back to what I've done before, which is identify a problem. Default about it. Wait, so add that to the list of leadership behaviors we need. I love that. Discomfort, comfort with discomfort. Add that to the list. We'll keep a running list.

Yeah. I uh So, you know, I speak about all those things all the time with my friends. And now my friends, they want to take me to some kind of workshop just to color things. They said, "Eddie, we need to stop all those conversations about system, economy, all that. Can we just sit and color stuff? We just have fun."

Yeah. Anyway, but you know, I want I want to say something here. It's uh it's kind of like one of the strategic things that I do and I've been practicing for several years right now. um in my journey. The first time I started sharing and speaking up and talking about my vulnerability, the time I was national staff, the time I started going in deployments and all that, I realized that the moment you start taking control of the narrative is exactly the moment you are not really that vulnerable anymore. M

so I felt there is this I don't know what to call it but it's like this strategic invulnerability so I could talk about a story when I was bullied another story when I you know biased or discriminated or struggled with this and all that and I feel so emotional and I feel really sad when I'm I'm doing that but then when I do it 10 times I feel like hm I'm actually proud that I survived this and I built from this. So I'm not sure if this is like a mechanism or tool or something people use but I noticed that when you take control of the narrative it lose its um it doesn't harm you that much like it of course you carry it with you but you don't feel the same vulnerability as the first time.

Yeah.

Is it also because in doing it you're creating you're creating the frame and you're creating the container of like where the boundaries are and where the guard rails are. And if you're choosing the right safe space, people's hopefully their reaction is a positive one. So that's healing in and of itself. I don't know. Yeah. I think also you know the first time I think it was two years ago I shared a personal story I have never mentioned before in my life and I exposed myself. I felt so bad at that time. I felt tired for a full week. I felt like my emotions went out and public. But the way people started supporting me and showing solidarity and I was like our sector is about solidarity.

It really is. I just feel stronger. Yeah. Um Ali, I want to we've mentioned this podcast. This is we've mentioned a blog that you wrote recently. We can link it here. Um, and that's a demonstration of vulnerability. You've been incredibly raw with that. How did you feel clicking post or send when you released that? And how have you felt since?

Uh, that's a very good question. Um, you know, I reflect a lot. It's that's one of the things that I do frequently. And I write so much and it's been so many years. I write things but I usually I don't post them online and I also record videos and I don't post them online. I consider them like for me and I visit them at some point in my life or something like that. But I think with this what I posted I had this moment where I felt that I want maybe to inspire someone or maybe to tell someone that I feel you, I see you. I went through the same and it's a tough journey. Um and also because to be honest when I started in the sector I was looking so much online to try some people who are like me and did things that I want to do but unfortunately I couldn't find um so I felt like I need to start giving some kind of like example or something like that.

So I wrote that piece for myself. The initial plan wasn't to share it and publish it, but then I was like, you know, maybe it will inspire someone, maybe it will talk about the impact of the pledge without going into indicators and all that because for me it's so personal. So when I posted this online after 10 minutes, I was like, "Oh, maybe I should remove it." Um yeah, I was about to remove it and then I opened the details like this view and I saw already 20 people read it because you know many people they read but they don't react and I was like maybe let me wait a bit. So what I did I went for a walk and then I opened my laptop to check what's happening there.

Did people say anything? And I started seeing the comments and then I was like hm that's interesting because my initial reaction was oh I'm expos exposing so much and most probably after this I might not get opportunities because now I'm challenging the sector and flagging all those different red flags or and all that and I was like oh maybe it will also affect my future. maybe I said something there and you know because what you put online it stays online. So I was like oh um maybe I should remove it. So I was hesitant but then when I started seeing people comments and so many people wrote to me and wanted to have a conversation and all that. Um I feel that I keep forgetting that I am a part of a community.

Um and I am not alone in this and I am just one story among so many others. Um and you know like I remember I have a friend once asked me um about the book I'm I'm writing and it's been several years and said like can you describe it in one sentence something like that and I said I'm just an ordinary person lived extraordinary life I am like everyone else but the circumstances were really tough. So when I started seeing the people um solidarity I felt like I should keep reminding myself that I am part of larger community that wants to make that change and part of that community is supporting each other and I have to admit I do feel vulnerable from time to time because I do expose myself but um I came to the conclusion that when you are advocating for a change like that and you're putting yourself out there part of the journey is to share your vulnerability and to tell your story.

So yeah, that's how that's how I feel um about it.

Thank you for sharing that. Um, it strikes me that your experience of recording or writing, um, whichever feels right in the moment for you, whether it's released or not, is one of your ways of reflecting, processing, giving you yourself that moment to pause, reflect, carving that time and that space out. Um, and sometimes you choose to post and sometimes you don't and that's your prerogative. Sometimes you reread them, which is interesting and sometimes you don't, right?

Um, but that's that's just a really helpful tip tool maybe and maybe that's something we can offer listeners is to do a similar type of thing. Um, Kim, have you got a re a way of co-regulating yourself? What do you do when things get too much? Um, so how let me think about the co-regulating piece. But you, as you were saying it, I was thinking, well, how do I do the reflecting? Cuz I wish I could say that I journal and I aspire to, but I don't. And but I think it's the work that I do kind of takes care of it for me because as a as a facilitator really, the way that I see it is I'm holding space for others. And by holding space for others, you're doing in some ways you get to be the one that holds the pen at the flip chart, right?

So you're the one that's like creating the container, holding the frame, doing building the narrative, right? And there's a lot of control and power in that. I think those who teach like to teach for a reason because we like control, but it also requires you to do a lot of listening and kind of connecting of the dots. And what I do is as I am, especially in a virtual environment, as I'm holding space for people, I process by taking notes as I go. So I have a word doc up and I'm taking notes as people are talking. And that allows me to build connections and do the reflection in real time. And I think that helps me. It almost always leaves me feeling more hopeful than not, even when the topic is heavy.

Because I think like to all what we've all been saying is people are looking for community. They're looking for connection. They're looking for agency when they feel overwhelmed and helpless. And they're looking to feel seen. And every time you pull people together and have real not, you know, not surface level, not small talk conversations, you get that. And I think for me, that's where you get the reflection. That's where you get the sense making.

Yeah. And I guess that does regulate me. Yeah. What about you? What works for you? Let me respond to you for a minute and then mention my bit. Um there's something you said there though about that um facilitator role and holding space, right? And you're talking about it in a in a sort of you know fairly common place environment situation that most people will connect with in terms of there's a flip chart and someone at the front and there's a group of people who are being structured through a through a conversation. But Ali, your the way you've been sharing posts and things is another way of facilitation. It's a bit more of an abstract way, but you're facilitating people in their own reflective processes and both of you in one way or another are holding containers for people's emotions, right?

And inviting them to come and engage with that at a pace that's appropriate and relevant for them.

Yeah. And I think that's just something we need to call out and encourage more to happen because it's well you do that with leadership coaching don't you? Yeah I try to yeah and back to what we were saying at the beginning of this call about leadership behaviors I think that type of sort of emotional container space doesn't doesn't doesn't come naturally if we're we're we're living a very managerialist workplace environment, right? Um, and so part of these future leadership pieces is allowing that emotional container. Um, there's a beautiful French word, revery, where you take the emotion and then you kind of return it in a in a way that's constructive and helpful for individuals to process and be able to move forward on, which is fantastic.

Um, you asked how I do it. Um, I do it largely by this space behind me. Actually, I step away. I've got a book here called craftfulness um which is essentially how crafting making stuff which is what I like to do behind me um is as a form of mindfulness um and it's and it's that opportunity to step away um it got reminded I got reminded of it um couple of months ago um I was in a in a bit of a low bit of a low point and I felt that you know the instinctive way out of it was to sit here in this chair and the answers were going to be here in this little black box in front of me, right? Um, and I'd start earlier and I was finishing later and I was and it just and the longer the more I did it, the sort of more spiraling took place and I was like, "This isn't working.

This is this is not where the answers are." And so I very intentionally just stopped and I and I spent a couple of hours each morning just behind me there making stuff or fixing stuff or make and uh and that slowly starts to help sort of bring my mind back into a into a healthy creative curious place and I can then the mind wanders particular if you're doing monotonous tasks right the mind then goes into other things and you remember and you reflect and so that's how I tend to like

I love that I got into watercolor this year. I'm really I'm not the most creative human, but so I'm kind of I'm I'm learning how to let the mind wander. I got into water color this year and there's these people on the internet that will do like five minute and you like follow them. And my kids are like, "You're just following the instructions." I'm like, "Yeah, but that's my version of creativity and it helps. [laughter] Let me do let me do me."

Well, Ali, you talked about coloring books, right? Yeah. It's the same during COVID, weren't they? One of the things that sold out the most, adult coloring books. Um, you talk about wandering. Another thing I do is I like getting outside. On Monday, I'm going on a wandering wander, which I loved. What does that mean? I get wandering wander. One with an A, one with an O. I'm meeting someone and we're going to go for a walk. We're going to wander.

And we're going to wander. Oh, that's interesting. A wandering wander. I'm really looking forward to it. That's really interesting. You know there is this thing um I sometimes do uh so before joining the sector and later on I used to take photos so much.

I don't like to call myself photographer but I love photography. So what I do is that I sit and imagine certain photos like um you know like a person drinking coffee um a candle next to a window a tree next to water etc. And then I take my camera and just walk around on the streets trying to find that picture and take it. Sometimes it takes like whole day, other times it takes the full weekend. Other times two hours. But I found it super interesting because I could imagine something and then try to find where I could find it.

Well, it probably helps you, right? Huh? It probably helps you to see the world in different ways. Yeah. I And I love observation. Um but you know I noticed something that to be honest I think the majority of the leaders that I know were really good leaders they had a thing you know maybe writing maybe connecting with people maybe coloring maybe music maybe photography that's really interesting

creativity people mistake creativity with artistic and certainly I think you need creativity to be artistic But I don't think you need to be artistic to be creative. Right. That's Yeah. And I don't think it should be, you know, I have um one friend and she's super smart, talented leader. She likes to play Zelda. So it's a video game, but it was it's her way of, you know, exploring and doing and solving issues.

Yeah. I don't know how long we've been talking now. It's got to be 40 minutes or so. 40 minutes. Um, what are your reflections on this conversation? I think there's a lot of themes that are coming up that we've had in our kind of just the three of us conversations before and I think that there's a whole lot of themes that are going to keep coming up next year that we can probably unpack and we'll have I mean leadership

tensions the intersection of personal and system these are all things that are keep coming up and they keep coming up for a reason. So, I think it was like a like a lovely little overview of the year maybe without us intending or planning it. I don't know. What do you all think? I agree. Ali, what do you think?

Um, the same. I you know, I like those conversations. So, it's I like it like this, you know, we don't have specific topic. We just go with the flow and we share things from each other's side and maybe stories from other. I think for me that's really good. That's perfect. and there is no need to have a goal. And I like that until now we didn't really come with a name for this, but I like that. [laughter]

Yeah. No, exactly. And I think what we've spent a lot of time talking about in terms of how we've own each individually sort of co-regulated and had our own thoughts and practiced reflective behaviors. Um that point is going to be so crucial for people moving forward, isn't it? Right. And I was talking to someone yesterday about kind of, you know, have I have I had a chat with a mutual colleague um recently and I was like, "No, I haven't." And I've consciously left them alone because, you know, the arc of the year was starting tired because everyone starts every year fatigued, right? That myth that January 1st is full of vitality and refreshed renewal and stuff, right? Like stuff from December's still there. Um, so he started tired and then executive orders, Donald Trump, USA stuff and it was just crazy chaos for the first probably half the year, right?

If we're honest and then particularly in the north, they had a bit of a break and then it's been a bit of a kind of right, well, what have we got left with? There was a there was a period of let's just kind of okay, we're not going bankrupt tomorrow, but where what's the lay of the land? and no one and certainly this individual hasn't had the opportunity to come up for air yet. Um and so I hope and this is a hope I hope that people who have had that journey this year are able to take time at the end of the year a good time right not just the public holidays filled with some annual leave right they take two three weeks solid and come back next year and that next year is that moment of being able to come up and think um

yeah do you know there When I started taking those videos, the main reason was recording uh messages for the future me. So I would take a video. Yeah. And I would talk about something happening in my life. Sometimes maybe leaving a job, other times taking a new job. Sometimes it's just something very bad happened. Other times is something amazing happened. And I say I talk to myself to the future me that you know I don't know one day you'll see this and I talk about this experience and later on I felt like oh I actually find it super interesting and good way to reflect and connect with the past me because sometimes we just remember nice things about the past or very bad things about the past.

So I feel that's a way also like I'm speaking to myself and I could feel myself again in that moment and all the thoughts. So maybe you know maybe that's one of the things that people now could find useful. Uh write it or video or anything think about it and then revisit it again.

I love that. Leaving cap capturing thoughts for your future self. Excellent. Um should we leave it there for this one? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's good. Yeah, I think it's good. Good. Good. Cool. Thank you. Oh, we have to um uh because we have that uh logo that we are putting. We should mention where is that uh came from.

Yes. Oh, this postcript piece. Yeah. [laughter] This um is from a artistic speaking of creativity and what is art? This is an artistic masterpiece from my uh when my three-year-old made it. He is now 11. And he made it when he was in preschool. And you guys were looking at it one day and we're like, "Oh, the modern art." And I'm like, "No, he was very insistent that at the time that it was a giraffe, obviously."

Yeah. But we thought that it kind of fit the year that's in it, right? Kind of colorful and chaotic and people can make what they will of it. Yeah. Exactly. I love it. And I'm gonna I'm gonna back him up. If he wants it to be a draft, it's a draft. I've got I've got him. I like that.

Cool. Thank you both. Absolute pleasure. Till next time. Till next time. Good. Yeah.