Who Are You in the Room, Identity vs Positionality, and Leadership in Times of Disruption

So, one of the things that I've been that I've been thinking a lot about lately is this idea of falling in love with the problem, right? And how are people getting stuck in this loop of falling in love with the problem and not being able to move from okay, I know what's happening to I'm going to do something about it. And in a lot of the conversations that I've been having

And Ali, you were part of them um the other day, we were talking about there's this moment where you need to take this extra step to pause and reflect. And so many times when there is a catalytic event or a moment of disruption, people want to run into okay, this is what we're going to do or they want to just fall in love with the problem and they never get out. And sometimes they're a little bit codependent on that problem, right? Because it's part of their identity or it makes them feel good or they get something out of it. The moment in between those two things where you can pause and do the discernment, do the this is how it affects me and my life, this is where I do my own work on myself to kind of change my mental models as necessary, is where I think we have the best shot at getting people to take small steps, so little A actions, little A experiments, into new things and not default back into survival mode, what's comfortable, the old way of doing things.

So, I've been sitting with that a lot lately. And so, what does that mean? Part of it is doing like practical tactical sense making of what does this mean for me and my organization and myself, but a lot of it comes down to self-awareness. And you can't start without understanding where your position is. You can't start without saying how am I showing up to this particular space. And Aisha, who we've invited today, and I have had this conversation I don't even know how many times in the last 12 to 18 months about how we are showing up

in very different places in very different ways and how you sometimes it's pretty uncomfortable sometimes and what that looks like. So, um for me that's what I've been kind of grappling with lately.

Brilliant. I love I love the way you framed that. And I've got a load of thoughts going on in my head um which I'm sure everyone does as well based on what you said. So, let's start there, shall we? With a bit of a reflection from you, Aisha, on the positionality piece. And then and then later on we'll come to your part, Ali, in Dubai and your reflections in a similar way to you gave us thoughts on Geneva a few weeks ago. How does that sound? Lovely.

Excellent. Cool. All right. Um Aisha, welcome. Um Kim has wonderfully tee you up with the promise of synthesized thoughts from months worth of conversations on positionality. So, where are you at? What would you like to offer us in terms of positionality today? Yeah, thank you for that framing, Kim. And we have talked about

that quite a bit. And I think that, you know, really thinking about your positionality allows you to take a step outside of the problem and to create a distance. So, you are asking yourself where are we showing up from? What assumptions are shaping the way that I'm thinking and what patterns am I reinforcing? And when we think about the shifts that have happened in the sector, these are some of the things that I've have to that I've had to really think about. I feel that last year January when everything just went crazy in the development sector and the humanitarian sector,

um I was in the Gambia working for a global north organization. So, I was seeing grassroots organizations, civil society organizations that I've worked with, INGOs, field offices just really crumble so quickly without any without any notice, without really any substantive explanation to really carry people along from the feelings that they were having. And I was in a position now in a different space where I was fortunate enough to have more information and to be part of convenings and we had even like a retreat that we did to talk about some of these things. And being in those two different positions really allowed me to realize that I was showing up in both spaces differently, but there was also most certainly an intersection with how I showed up.

But it was almost like I was two people. But sometimes they merged and when I merged in those spaces I'll be, you know, I'll be called out. So, I remember one time I was having a discussion with some civil society organizations here in the Gambia and I was talking to them about what's happening and how they're navigating things and they're like, "Well, I don't think you're affected the same way that we are. I don't think that you see the realities in the way that we do." And I was like, "Hey, no, I do. I'm like you guys. I'm here in the Gambia." But they're like, "But you're not really." So, for me that's actually um that's that's an area and a moment where I kind of had an epiphany and really had to pause to think about some of the patterns that I'm reinforcing.

And that's one example of what I've experienced here in the Gambia, but also just in the spaces that I have been in through the time initiative that I work on with Kim, the time and transformation lab where I really had to think about how transformation really starts when we understand who we are within the system. How we hold power, how our roles shape the solutions that we imagine. So, when we're thinking about, you know, what's possible, what's probable, um and what's preferable, our positionality very much informs um that process. And I believe that the shift happens from small steps similar to what Kim had mentioned, not massive ones. So, yeah, small experiments, trying new ways of collaborating, um testing different narratives, and then also reimagining relationships.

Um and I think that what we had from my experience, what has tended to happen is that we almost default into old models if we don't do that. And we need to start like to prototype the future by centering what position we play in that. Um and yeah, I think that's how I have been seeing positionality. And I'll also just say with how I show up to this um podcast today, I mean, I do live in the Gambia

as we talked about very quickly, Thomas. I've lived in the UK for many years, went to school there. But then I'm also born in the Gambia and I was raised by Gambian parents and I've always been in this development sector. So, even when I was in uni, I was very, you know, social sciences with the humanitarians, into activism and advocacy. And from the diaspora's perspective, I came to Gambia, I worked for an INGO's field office. So, always in this like, you know, circle where I'm always really intentional about my positionality. And there's so many blind spots that folks have that I'm aware of because I wear many of those hats and I've been like my identity's the intersections of my identity is quite broad because of where I've just been positioned geographically and my culture.

But then at the same time also having to realize that, okay, I need to step outside of this and really think about

how I'm showing up to the specific um space that I'm in. Fascinating. Thank you for that. Um I've been writing loads of notes down which maybe we'll come to. But the thought that is in my head at the moment is um you describe a tension between kind of how you are showing up as Aisha in spaces, but versus how you're being perceived as showing up in different spaces. And you were talking about

about your um

your sort of life, the various phases of your life and how that had created a disconnect and a distance between some people that you hadn't recognized and realized. So, I'm wondering the positionality that you're holding versus the projected positionality that is being projected onto you, how are you how are you holding those two? And where's the tension sitting in it for you?

Yeah, that's an excellent question. So, I will say that it's really interesting because when I worked in the development sector in Denmark, I worked quite a bit with civil society. And through working with civil society, I mean, Denmark is I'm sure, Ali, you will have

many stories about your experience working in Denmark as well. But Denmark is it's an interesting place in the sense that positionality and conversations about power, conversations about race, conversations about really identity outside of what it means to be Danish or not had in these spaces. I mean, I remember when I worked for my first American INGO where they were actually talking about a lot of these things, it was almost a shock to me because we weren't really talking about that in the spaces that I worked in and also studied in and how I grew up in Denmark. And when I think about the tensions, I would go into things. I remember being a representative for a Danish civil society organizations, I'm representing the needs from my community and where I live in Denmark, and then I'm not being seen as what I think I am.

I think that I'm a Danish woman, but I'm not seen as a Danish woman. I'm seen as a black woman. And that's actually one of the key tensions that I think I've I feel that I've almost always had as a as someone navigating that positionality is that my positionality is shaped by my experiences, it's shaped by where I'm born, it's shaped by where I went to school, it's shaped by literature that I've read, but then very much the way in which I look is what people first see. So, you wouldn't assume that I'm Danish. You would assume I am from the African continent, which I also am, but there's also that Danish side um to me. So, I think that has actually been a tension where, you know, you your physical appearance is what people automatically think.

And people tend to just group and not assume that, you know, you can be black and from Denmark. And that's really been a tension I've experienced.

And I've seen you code switch like on like immediately without even thinking about it. And doing so can be a superpower because we've been in spaces where you develop rapport with people in a way that's much faster depending on, you know, how you interact. And part of that's just being But that requires a lot of self-awareness. And if you kind of extrapolate that to where everyone is right now, if you're in a spot where you've never really had to have that level of self-awareness because the way that you show up in the world is the same is aligned with how people see you. So, you've never really had to think about it. Now, all of a sudden things are feeling real jarring and real uncomfortable because this is the first time you've had to do this, I guess.

I'd be interested to hear how both you, Ali, and Thomas show up. How do you What is your positionality?

I think the first thing I want to say just to reflect on what Aisha mentioned, it's it's extremely hard to um have those different hats and look at things from different perspectives and then try to build that bridge between the global and the local or the north and the south and all that. Like I remember someone once asked me about my experience working at headquarters. Um and I said I feel like I spent 3 years explaining HQ to the field and the field to HQ. I feel that was my job coming from operations, program, country operations um background from that side to headquarters macro different type of conversations where I had to engage with country operations to explain to them how HQ thinks and engage with the colleagues at HQ to explain how the field thinks.

So, it's And it's extremely hard and it puts additional pressure and all that. But to be honest, I was so lucky that I was doing that because I felt also personally I grew so much. But um to answer your question about showing up, I think depends on the platform. There were some things were always in a place. Like I remember last year in every single webinar or podcast, I was always saying, "Don't waste a serious crisis. Don't waste a serious crisis." Trying to show the positive side of the opportunity there and let's rethink. Let's reimagine. And X, Y, Z. But I have noticed something that people were coming to those platforms with different um positions and from different um experiences. Some of them, they were ready to build and take actions.

Others, they were a bit more into the grieving, denying mode. And till this moment, and it's been more than a year, people are still at those different stages. Like some people are still keeping guest houses or an office or some positions or X, Y, Z thinking things will go back to the way it was before. Um and the other day I was saying that it feels like this hibernation mode. You know, when there is an incident or um a crisis, usually you go into this hibernation mode. And then in that hibernation mode, you decide then. You could evacuate. You could stay until the incident or the crisis passed or something like that. So, I feel now after over a year with that institutional shocks that we all went through, some people are still in that hibernation mode thinking that things will go back to the way before.

But from my like, let's say my experience, um it was mainly about locking those principles or values or the messages that I wanted to give. Things like this, don't waste a serious crisis or let's take the opportunity or etc. And then adapt based on the conversation and the people who I was engaging with.

Ali, just to quickly respond to what you said, I think it very much links into your positionality, especially when you talked about that shift that you had to do with the different hats that you had and having to explain to both places that you sit in. You're able to have that um you're able to be that informed because of your positionality, because you are navigating in those different spaces. So, you see that urgency. And perhaps those that are keeping the guest houses and thinking that we can carry on as business as usual is because they're not in the other spaces that you're in and they're not getting that same information. And then you see that. For me, that's also actually a tension where, you know, in Plato's analogy when he finds when you find the enlightenment in the cave, you're out of the cave, you're back in and you're shouting to everyone, "Hey guys, like these are just shadows and, you know, you need to see what's going on outside." That's almost how I feel like my positionality is, where I have been in this cave, I've gone out of the cave, I'm coming back to the cave and I'm telling my people, "Guys, wake up.

This is not the reality. This is just shadows. We need to evolve. We need to really, you know, find that, you know, the core of it all and not be stuck in just looking at the same

thing, which is not real. It's just shadows. And I think that um came to also one of the things that you said about having to code switch. It is exhausting. I think that is very exhausting because you find that you need to be diplomatic, but there's also so much honesty that you have. So, you're constantly almost like resisting your own um voice and your own opinion because you know that in certain spaces, because they've not been outside of the cave, in order for you to influence and for them actually to listen to what you need to say, you have to code it in a way in which it will be received. And I think that for me, that has been a big tension that I have grappled with particularly in this sector where certain things are a bit sensitive.

I mean, when you go in as a black Muslim woman and you are talking about, you know, certain issues, people will now also start feeling guilty. And then there's that thing of like, "Well, I'm not a problem. And I know. And I this." And then they're like almost, you know, We What is that book called that I read? Uh it's called white guilt. White fragility, right? Where you almost like, you know, they feel bad. And then they're like, "Oh my gosh." And you need to comfort them because of your discomfort. And that happens all the time. [laughter] I remember I won't name the organization, but I worked for an organization once and we went on a um this was in Denmark. So, we went on a We had like a work thing.

And someone said a racist remark to me, like a really horrible one. And then um they came to me and they were like, "I am so sorry for my people." And I'm like, "Well, you know, afterwards, not when it happened, not to, you know, defend it when it's happening, but it's that afterwards of it. And it's that thing of like, you know, the performativeness sometimes of, you know, just you people wanting you to come into spaces because of your positionality and want to hear you say things, but they want to hear you say things from maybe like a an interpersonal way, not a systematic or structural or institutional. And when you think about it in our sector, that is also a reality. I mean, how many times I have heard um folks who want to hear about, "Oh, what's it like to grow up in Denmark?

What experiences that did you have?" But they don't actually want to hear about it from a position of systematic and institutional. Sorry, my son is here. Yeah. But um yeah, that is that is um one of the things. And then the positionality of being a mom and a someone that just wants to share [laughter] her opinion, you know. Yeah, but I

It reminds me of what Sophia mentioned last time where she was talking about like, I have this ability to be effective because I can filter everything I say, but then I also need to be want to be authentic. And so, how do you do both? And both of it takes energy and awareness. Thomas, you pulled a big book off the shelf. Yeah, I'll come to that in a sec. It's not that big. Aisha, you hit a nerve. Um you hit a discomfort that I hold. And it's about this oppositionality thing. Um and it's when you so when you talked about there were people in the room who feel innately discomforting and you have to comfort them. I was that person who needed comforting, right? And it was the moment.

There was a there was a point um during the peak of the sort of Black Lives Matter movement um that was asking every organization to really kind of reflect um on their own internal dynamics. And we really lent into that. The team I was with at the time, um international NGO, regional office, Nairobi, covered East and Southern Africa. And we did. We properly lent in. And in that team, in that group, I was a minority, right? I think there were three white men in the team of 70. And I kind of entered it going, "Oof, this is going to be uncomfortable." And I went into the town halls that were taking place expecting, and this is my own internal narrative, expecting to get a real bashing.

Expecting not as an individual, not personally, but as something that I represent, a background that I come from. And I wasn't I was sat there. I very consciously kind of thought, "Well, how do I go about this?" And I thought the only way I can engage is to just be open, to be vulnerable, and to listen. Um and that's the approach I took. But the conversation that I was then privileged to be to be part of was actually talking about intertribal dynamics in Kenya. And it was talking about class and wealth disparity and how privileged Kenyans hold a positionality against other Kenyans that didn't come from the same sort of background. And it was it was eye-opening for me in that regard. But inevitably and appropriately, there was a conversation that came around race and ethnic background and coloniality and oppression and power shifts and dynamics that exist.

And I was a representative of a neocolonial power, right? And I carry still to this day, less so now, but especially then and 10 years living in Kenya kind of really shown it showed it to me, but I carry a lot of ancestral guilt. I carry a lot of guilt for my ancestors, for what they did. I know I haven't done anything as an individual on this planet, but I am a representative of things that ancestors did. And it's the sort of consequences of them and it's the pathways that have been available to me as a result of that ancestry that has given me opportunities in life that others haven't had. And it took me a long time to square that away, to understand how.

And that's where I needed the comfort, right? I needed I needed the reassurance from colleagues in Nairobi in that role. And they were very giving with it and they were very happy to provide that or at least on the surface they were. Um but it was a it was a huge thing. And Kim, you asked about my thoughts on positionality and how I show up in the world and that's part of how I show up. I'm trying to in some way or shape or form make amends for ancestral events. Um but I'm also conflating, I don't know rightly or wrongly here, positionality and identity. And in the way that we're framing positionality here, I'm struggling to create a distinction. So for me it's about identity and what is my identity and who am I?

And one of the dynamics that is playing into that is and you brought up parenthood, Aisha, is on a dad, right? I'm a dad to an 8-year-old daughter. And my life before being a dad was quite different to the life that I am going to have post being a dad. And becoming a dad's part of that, but also phases of life is a part of that. And so I'm constantly thinking, what is my daughter going to think of me as to who I am? Um cuz I always think about my parents and the life that they had before I was born as someone else, right? All the stories I hear about them pre-me was another person. That wasn't them. And I wonder whether she's going to think the same of me and what will she then think of me?

And so I'm thinking about that. I'm also thinking about a transition um that I'm still experiencing having left the humanitarian sector. I'm no longer a humanitarian. But I'm like, well, that's not right. Of course I'm still a humanitarian, right? I just don't have a job has that in its title. And so transition exiting the formal system and I did it just before the system collapsed in January last year, right? So I wasn't a casualty of that crisis. But I have started to really reflect on the value of humanity and how that shows up in my positionality and my identity. I hold humanity as a very close, very prominent value in who I am. Mhm. And I haven't got the avenues of an institutionalized system to exercise that, right?

And I left the system cuz I feel like I'd I'd I'd run out of road to change it. And so I left thinking, well, I can influence from the other side. And then it collapsed anyway, and so I was like, well, I've got to find somewhere else. And so now I've suddenly been opening my eyes and everywhere I look I do see acts of humanity. I see people in every walk of life exercising humanity. They use a different language, but they are exercising humanity. And so this distinction between corporatized institutionalized aid and global humanity for me is now really clear. And you don't need the institutionalized aid sector to hold humanity for the world. That happens with everybody, right? And I think we just we're on a global journey of realizing that and societies around the world are probably going to get pushed to the edge before they can act on that, but that's going to be a reality we'll have in the near future, I think.

Yeah. I love Can I Yeah, go ahead, Aisha. No, the way in which I understood both of them and what it means to me is that your identity is what you carry. So it is who you are, your background, your experiences, the communities that you belong to. Whilst I understand positionality as like how you're situated in relations to power and systems. And it's you know, the reflection that you had about my identity is always the same. So when I'm in Denmark and when I'm in the Gambia, I'm always Aisha.

I'm a mother, a Muslim, African, a Mandinka, which is my tribe.

Uh you know, all of these other things. But then my positionality changes. In Denmark I'm part of a marginalized community. I am in a minority. I live in Nørrebro, which is one of the you know, really I mean now it's changing, it's becoming gentrified, but when I was younger it was called the ghetto, really. That's what they called it. Um you know? And um when I come to the Gambia, I belong to a different class. So I am part of the majority tribe. I come from a family who's quite affluent and has political and social status. I live very differently because of you know, just my dynamic economically in the Gambia is not working class as it has been growing up in Denmark. So my positionality in this system changes.

When I also show up in my job, it's a different thing. When I am in my job with my you know, certain colleagues from the global north and I'm the only one, it's a different positionality that I hold. But then when I go to Kenya for working group and I'm with Kim and now Kim is the only white woman that's there and then it's like we're all Africans and it's a different positionality. So I think positionality really shifts depending on the context that you're in. And I think it's super interesting to be aware of like where am I in this conversation? What power do I hold? Where am I marginalized? Am I marginalized? What does my perspective shape in the way in which I see things?

And um yeah, I think that's quite interesting. And it's also like I'm sure for you, Kim, maybe I'm speaking for you, but like you know, here your podcast but you're also a facilitator. And then you know, you can So there's different hats that you have. Sometimes you're a manager. And that positionality that you have really shapes the way in which you show up in that's why I've I've been using the shorthand of saying, how am I showing up to this space?

Mhm. I don't know if that's if that's what word that is. But how am I showing up to this space? And this space the different parts of me will be um will have different impacts than if I show up in another space. So and I we've learned that both the easy way and the hard way. And this is why Aisha and I have had to have these conversations multiple times because normal typically when I'm in a US-based audience, the way that I show up is you know, I'm half white, half Asian American. And but I grew up in a very white town raised by a very white father. And so I mostly identify at with kind I have the white guilt, I have this, but then from the outside there are people that are like, I don't even know what you where you where you know, where are you from?

I'm from Connecticut. But where are your parents from? Rhode Island. You know, there but they're really trying to find out where you know, what where my grandparents came over from China. This is what they're trying to get at. So there's that piece of it. And yet in the international world, that's not what shows up for me. In the in my work space, often it's I come as an American. And typically that space has come with a place of privilege and a and some level of kind of assumed authority, etc. In the last 12 to 18 months, you show up in a very different way. You show up kind of a little bit more apologetically. You show up with a lot of humility. You show up in listening mode.

And you have to acknowledge it at the front in order to set the space. So understanding all those different kind of how am I showing up to this space? But again, it takes a level of self-awareness that is evolving. It's not and you're always going to get it somewhat wrong. And you have to be okay with getting it wrong. And then when you're wrong, calling it out. Cuz that's the trust thing. Yeah. I want to say something here and it's maybe it's from different angle. When I was recruiting people for headquarter positions, I was mainly focusing at bringing people from country operations. Um and one trend I have noticed and I faced personally, those colleagues who were coming from country operations, the moment they move into headquarter positions and live that what people call the normal life, they struggle with this identity question.

Because they are not familiar of who they are outside, you know, the this speed and being a humanitarian, you are under attention and all that. Um so it was one key area in the onboarding process to just take them from that field country operation mode to headquarter mode. And the main reason why I'm saying that because I remember when I uh moved to headquarter after 13 country operations, my whole adult life was in movement, country operation to another site to another hard to reach to another conflict zone to another. So I remember when I moved to headquarter, uh I remember in Denmark, I didn't know what to do outside working hours, when people are offline. And I remember the first time I went to a supermarket with a colleague, I went there and I bought so many things.

And my friend was like, why? You don't need all that because I was buying instead of like one rice

like packed 2 kg or something, I would buy 10. So I would buy like those bulks. But because I'm used in a country operation that when I have opportunity to go to the supermarket, just buy stuff because you never know what would happen. Or I'm used to talking all the time about work and what's happening in the sector and all that. And then suddenly I start meeting people that they have no clue about what we do. So I had this question of, okay, who am I outside that? And one of the things that happened is that especially colleagues who are in country operations or move in international positions, you know, when you land in a country operation, you start adapting to culture, to norms, to the setup, how you dress, how you speak, how you behave, etc.

So because I spent my whole adult life in 13 country operations,

the moment I had the opportunity to be who I am, I was a bit confused, to be honest. I wasn't sure what do I like, what I don't like, what are the things that I would do without, you know, needing to adapt to this or that or etc. But the main reason why I'm saying that because we don't talk that much in the sector about the issue of feeding the

ego of um leaders in powerful positions in country operations, especially with international organization, giving them so much attention, so much power, influence. They are under the spotlight and all that. But the moment they leave, it's a different story. And I remember when I used to send some colleagues to country operations, especially those who are like in the first assignment or something like that, I would always say that just remember when you land there, that vehicle that is waiting for you, the guest house that you will be given, all that attention and power and the ministers that you will meet and the governors that you meet and the vehicles will move around you, etc., they are because of that responsibility that you have. Because the moment they land back in the, you know, in their home country or something, all that attention just disappears.

Um so I think it's the identity thing is very important question for leaders to have, especially those who are in country operations and moving from a place to another. And especially those who are not comfortable engaging with people who are outside this ecosystem and the humanitarian sector.

It's really Okay. That Go on. put on our facilitator hats, Thomas. I can see it. Both of us are like I was going to come in with a comment. I wasn't facilitating.

go.

[laughter]

I'm loving what you just said, Ali. And I share your distinction between identity and positionality. Thank you for that. It's really made me think and linking to what you very open first open with came on, diagnose, discern, and then jump to action and delivery. Um the positionality of humanitarian leaders, wherever they sit in all structures at the moment, is based on and the actions that I'm witnessing, at least, is based on an identity and a positionality for a space that no longer exists. All right? That space is from the pre-2025 aid era. And yet they're feeling a little bit lost from what I can see in terms of how to navigate that, where to go, what that means in terms of decision-making. There's a frustration.

There's a there's a an innate patterned behavior to rush to action because that's necessary. And in certain instances, from a financial sustainability survivability point of view, that was necessary. But from an institutionalized identity point of view, things have got to start changing. That moment of discernment, that reflective period, that pause, is absolutely necessary. And I've been really interested. I'll be fascinated to hear what you guys think. Tom Fletcher, as the ERC, he's had a massive pivot in the last few weeks in his public representation, right? It used to be lots of really short clips of him walking somewhere, showing action, commenting on we're doing stuff, we're delivering, we're active, we're getting stuff done, blah. And it was exhausting watching it. And I interpreted it as he was he was perpetuating a narrative that isn't relevant anymore.

I'm not saying that aid isn't required and that action and urgency isn't there. Of course it is. But what he was doing was encouraging other humanitarian leaders in the system in the sector to continue perpetuating the same kind of we just do what we've always done because that's what we know. Whereas actually in the last few weeks, I've seen a really dramatic pivot. It's now big speeches, auditorium environments, and he's talking about values. He's talking about morals. He's talking about the moment of time and how we've got to step up and live the moral values that we have been so sort of, you know, I think now in the in the last few years, we've been dismissive of, right? We've become too operationalized, too corporatized.

The moral and the value side of things are posters on a wall. Whereas now, they're the test. Now they're the thing that we have to uphold. And if we stay true to those, remain integral to those, doesn't matter where you work, is my understanding. It's how I'm taking it. Doesn't matter what job you've got. Doesn't matter what organization you work for. Doesn't matter who you talk to, what space you're in. Uphold the values, that's what carries humanitarianism through this, and that's where we'll land at the end of it, hopefully. Couldn't agree more. Yeah, and what's interesting about that is it doesn't require a formal role. Um anyone can do it. It's easier said than done. How do I walk the talk when things times get hard?

In order to do that, the very first step is to understand who I am. Yeah. And as I what you said it was really interesting, Thomas, which is the perspective how some of these leaders are showing up are showing up in a way that's for a world that's no longer relevant. And yet as I think about, you know, I've been talking about the three horizons model quite a bit, there is still some of that old model in the kind of horizon one of business as usual keeping the lights on. So it takes a lot of what Aisha was talking about, code-switching, to be able to do, right? Here's the old model of leadership that I need to be able to do to keep the trains running, but I need to be able to pivot into a new model of leadership or positionality or a self-awareness to kind of

stay relevant and legitimate. And it's exhausting. That's why everyone's so tired right now.

[laughter]

Well, they're tired for other They're tired because of moral injury and trauma that they've experienced over the last 18 months. And so that's they're starting from a point of fatigue. But that point of three horizons, I love three horizons. It's it's fantastic in terms of being able to help people carry competing priorities. It breaks down that binary, this or that, right? Yes. And that understanding, that way of horizon one dropping off but not totally disappearing, that speaks to the discernment side of things, right? It's about understanding You've done the diagnosis, we understand what's gone wrong, we understand the challenges and the changes that are taking place. The discernment is that moment of pause, what from the previous world are we carrying forward, and what is it that was fledgling, that was sort of emerging previously, it was done on the side of people's desks, but actually now needs to be thrust forward.

That's where we need to apply that discernment. We need to apply that critical reflective thinking. And actually have that clarity of thought around that and the boldness and the courageousness to act on it. Because it's too safe to just carry on with what you've always done, right? And Thomas, that's not where evolution's going to happen. What are the two A words that you've used before where it's like alignment and What is those two things where it's Accommodation and assimilation. Accommodation and assimilation. I've been thinking about that a lot, too. Well, you I should

benefit, I guess. It The assimilation in the way that I've been using it is when you receive new information, you selectively choose from it the bits that reinforce your own frame of reference for the world. Whereas accommodation is where you accept that it's disrupting your frame of reference and that you then move forward with a with an expanded worldview or you accept and you learn from that moment and then take the action based on that point of view. But again, in order to do that, you need to be self-aware. Self-reflection. Yeah. Absolutely.

But the values don't change. Your beliefs don't change. And I think an aha moment that I had last year was So I worked for an INGO here on the ground in the Gambia. And in that space, there was a lot of talk about, you know, civil society organizations many often and seen INGOs as just funding programs, like endless programs. And they're just there to fund and they fund and fund. And there was an issue with, you know, really trying to support these civil society organizations to take ownership and to think about the financial resiliency and what happens when the INGOs are no longer here, how are you going to continue on, you know, implementing some of your mandates? And when funding cut, the I the civil society organizations, they continued.

People donated their time, locals donated their times, locals donated their resources. They didn't actually need that external help to be here on the ground. Of course, it was beneficial in terms of it gave them funding, it allowed them to do what they had to do, but there was also recognition that, okay, we work in key areas. We work in democracy, we work in health care, we work in education. Just because we don't have funding does not mean that our communities don't have the needs that they have. And that's the values that you have as an organization. It's not necessarily tied into the civil society organization that you come from because many of them had to close down. But the work has still continued. People are volunteering.

So I think it really, you know, when we are thinking about systems and especially with the sector disruptions, I think that one of the things that we've realized in time is that it was grief for some, but for others it was relief. And for some people, it wasn't even disruption because they're used to disruption so much that it's just business as usual. It's just that everybody else is, you know, going through it and it's like, well, we've had this before. Our funders just cut from us. It's nothing new. And particularly actors in the global south who are working at the very grassroots level, it's not new. They've it's happened so many times, but they've built this resiliency that the system almost works for itself. It knows what to do.

I was amazed by how quickly folks adapted. Like it was incredible. People were just like, oh, well, we need to find option B, and then they just did it. And I myself maybe had that internalized bias where I was like, I you guys are not going to be able to work without this funding and this technical assistance, but they did.

You know? It's um it's quite interesting. It's it's it's a tolerance for change and adaptability, isn't it? Which I've heard similar reflections. Country level is very easy to accommodate. They're still like, we the headquarters, the global level teams, they're like, what? They've They got far too entrenched and established in where they're at. Um I'm I'm looking at the time as well. And I think this is a nice bridge talking about different offices in different parts of the world accommodating change differently. Ali, you've been in Dubai and you had some reflections on your time in Dubai. Um do you want to speak to this?

Yeah, I think it's first it's super interesting to be to be here. Every couple of months, I make a visit to GCC countries, mainly United Arab Emirates to Dubai. Um I engaged with so many people here from so many different sectors and domains and levels. Um this time was a bit different because, you know, the country is going through all those challenges and with what's happening in Middle East and there were disruption in the classic supply chain, supply and demands, and the airport movement, and tourism, and multiple things. Um but I have noticed several things. Um I engaged mainly with people from the private sector, foundations, and people who are working with schools and universities and media as well. And I have noticed one thing in common that many they were approaching the response to what's happening in the future through the lens of investing in leadership.

And uh for those who doesn't know, Dubai has a has a course in its schools. It's mainly focusing at morals. So they like it's it's a mandatory one. So all the children, teenagers, they go through that class and they learn more about morals and ethics and values and all that. And if you are walking around here, you will always see or hear things about the values that stand by and all these things. So it was really interesting for me that the majority of the people that I spoke to and they engaged with looked at responding to what's happening and investing in the future through investing at this value-based leadership, the morals, and that side of the things. And the more I dig deeper into it, it felt like a moment of pausing, reflecting, thinking, and from there building up.

And I found it interesting because, of course, it's one of the things that I think we mentioned in every single episode that with that we had. And it's one of the things that we keep talking about. But also linking it to um the this shock that faced the humanitarian development sector because we went through that crisis, regardless if it's operational, if it's funding, if it's gap between strategy and operations, XYZ. And some of us went through the action mode, others hibernation, others they wanted extra funding, others they started posting more vertical videos or whatever, others wanted attention, etc. etc. Um And now when I'm looking at the situation here and they are going many they are going through similar institutional shock because of this supply demand and with the security situation, the risk situation.

But they are approaching it from the perspective of let's pause, take the opportunity to think how we are going to invest in the leadership that we have, especially in those, let's say, foundations or private sector um companies that I uh I met. And um and the main reason why I mentioned that moral course because I could see now, even with students in many schools, they are studying and from home, there's so much focus at that course right now and looking how to expand it to other institutions and other frameworks. So I think one interesting thing is that when you go to any international organization, we will talk about code of conduct, we will talk about safeguarding trainings, we will talk about IT, we will talk about mainstreaming, XYZ.

But it's so interesting that we don't really have that many moral classes or values really value-based leadership classes. Or even when we invest in leadership, we invest in those general terms, but not go into deeply into how to um you know, transform, let's say, something as a leader. How do you use AI as a leader? How do you work with the team in a crisis as a leader? Like all those different hats that a leader would put in different situations. So I found that super interesting.

It is interesting and it sounds like it's uh it's a step ahead of where the rest is, maybe. Um I'm fascinated, Ali. You A few weeks ago you talked about your reflections on having been in Geneva and now you're and now you're in Dubai. What's standing out for you as really different between the two visits and the conversations that you've had in those two spaces? Um they both give different perspectives. Um Geneva, while it's a hub for humanitarian development actors, that hub, from my perspective and my opinion, unfortunately started creating a bubble. So they stand by the similar things. Um They collaborate within the same network. They think from similar perspectives or something like that.

They are going through similar shocks similar to each other. And they are trying to either adapt, change, or continue

with the system that it's there majority are following. Here, it's up at so many sectors and domains and like it's it's a different ecosystem. You are exposed to a wider ecosystem. This is number one. Two, I think for me and when I was in Geneva, for example, I had a bit higher expectations for the different institutions to react to what's happening and, you know, like um what to do and I tried to engage in to see what in terms of questions, trans- transformation, platform, etc. etc. etc. Here, they are already mobilizing fundings and mobilizing discussions and collective funds and different things. So I feel it's a bit like it's a it's a bit different way of handling the situation. But also like, you know, I don't want to be I am a bit biased because majority of the times I come to Dubai to gain a perspective.

It has a bit of a window to the future in some things. I am I like digitalization, I like technology, so I always have opportunity here to see that. The same with private sector and I like engaging with economists and all that, so opportunity to see that. Um but I like that it challenged the assumptions. There are so many conversations they are built from facts rather than a bit of assumptions that unfortunately many of the conversations that I had in Geneva, they are already starting from a guideline or best practice or SOP or XYZ, where I feel that maybe you should pause a bit and think, is it still relevant? So I feel that the starting point was a bit uh different. But again, I'm a bit biased in the way I'm seeing this.

Um But I have to admit that um I like the trend of talking about the future and responding to a crisis from investing in leadership. I like also the perspective of thinking about how can we build and not waste a crisis and XYZ. Um and I'm a fan of like just going to this um you know, thinking a bit, reflecting, and then building from there.

I'm writing something earlier today and I found myself coming up with the phrase um with we're too quick in a survivalist mind, right? Which is what you described from Geneva. In a survivalist mind, we rush to fix. Actually, what I'm hearing you say in Dubai is there's a curiosity to solve. So that distinction between that rush to fix versus the curiosity to solve, it reflects the mindset. It reflects the positionality that people have got in the spaces that they're occupying and the power and the relationship they have with power, the relationship they have with legitimacy, the relationship they have with voice. All of those things are all coming through in the attitude and the way the stance that they hold in tackling the challenges and the problems that they're facing with at the minute, right?

Is that's what I've taken from what you've said there.

Yeah, and again, it's not, you know, it's um Hm. No, it's true. I just think that um regardless of what's the name of the country or the city or the hub or XYZ, um we said that there are certain values we joined this sector because some of us maybe they believe in them or something. So regardless of the institution there or not, um I think it's about looking how to show up to this platform. I think it's totally okay for some people to be angry but it's uh how to take those up on what? I think that's a key question. To You know, when I people were saying like people are trying to leave or the airports was like one day open, one day not, flights are canceling, and then I flew in.

And when I met colleagues and friends and all that, they showed up with that curiosity, thinking, reflecting, trying to see how they support each other. And I was like, I wish I could see that more in the in the sector. I met a friend here who left the humanitarian development sector and moved to another sector and he told me one of the things he wished the humanitarian sector has to be more welcoming for the people who disagree with the things, you know, how it's happening. Or for the people who are challenging the system. He felt that the sector didn't welcome a different opinion or challenging assumption or something like that. Um But yeah, I think I again, it's interesting. I didn't have the time to fully reflect on this because I'm still in Dubai.

So maybe once I'm back, I will have a time to pause and think and compare and all that.

Kim, Aisha, what thoughts have you got at the minute on that? Wow, I feel like my There's so many thoughts. There's so much that I've I've received. But no, I think it's I One of my really big key takeaways from hearing you speak talk about identity and positionality. And even just Thomas, when you talked about the different places that you've been in and I've never had to think about identity versus positionality and how I actually show up in different

places depending on where I am. Um but I think that it's, you know, it's quite important when you are thinking about, you know, transformation, not just within the sector, but then also internally of just how I mean individually and personally of how you show up in the spaces that you are. That actually leads to transformation in a sense.

And I found it quite interesting as well when you shared your reflection of, you know, what you had gone through in Kenya and realizing that, you know, I remember So, I'll give this quick uh story. When the Black Lives Matter protest happened and I was in Copenhagen at the time,

this was the heights of George Floyd and it cascaded, it went global, everywhere in the world where they were protesting. And then everyone is talking about, "Oh, well, what can I do?" And there were a lot of apologies. Like, I received a lot of apologies and people just thought that was the right thing to do. For a lot of um Afro-Danes, they felt that we felt that we had an opportunity to talk about our experiences and how we were received was, "Well, they're sorry that happened to you." But being sorry is a How do we actually be anti-racist? How do you actually make sure that guilt or that feeling transforms into something concrete where you're actually challenging the system and you're doing something to improve the system.

And when we're thinking about, you know, the sector, humanitarianism

and development, you don't actually need to be in it to advocate, you know, because a lot of the work that the sector's doing, if it's climate change or if it's democracy or if it's education or whatever it may be, you can still be very much part of that discourse and that's the very human of all who we are and the values that we have. So, I think that's like one of my really key takeaways is the values bit of your positionality is almost defined by your values. The way in which you show up is defined by the values that you have, which is bigger than the organization that you're in. It's very much down to the individual. So, I found that quite

um interesting. Just thinking about it from the level of a leader and then the a leader within an organization

and how you show up in the ecosystem but then also just on the very, you know, personal individual level. It's quite interesting.

I'm taking away more questions. We always end with the questions, right? So, I'm what I'm curious about is what we can and should be learning from others who do this better than from than those who are, for example, in my positionality. So, what I've heard just from this conversation is, you know, some people are really good at code-switching in a in an intentional and yet authentic way. What can I be learning from that? Some people are really good at having a better sense of tolerance for disruptions. So, what can I learn?

In particular, I actually really do want to learn from that because I'm where I'm living in the US right now is going through a lot of disruption and I need to learn from others who have been in this place before me. Um and then this values-led leadership as being at like a forefront of all decision-making, what can the world learn from that? I think we need to do better at kind of learning from those who are ahead of us. Yeah, yeah. Ali, what questions are you leaving with? Uh it's not a question, it's something someone told me and it's been in my head for uh a couple of hours. This too shall pass. If you are feeling down, if you are facing challenges, if things are not going in the right direction or the direction that you want, this too shall pass.

And if you are feeling okay and feeling great and you're feeling the top of the mountain, this too shall pass. So, I think for me it's about standing by the values that you are believing in, the principles that you have in place, reflect, think, and uh always challenge assumptions. So, yeah, that's what's in my head. Um so, yeah, I hope people that they believe that um you know, it's about having those conversations with yourself and try to um be comfortable with your identity and defining your position. Absolutely. I'm sitting with this notion of how we show up with a either a simulated version of reality or the real version of reality. And whether we're clear in any given scenario or situation whether we are perceiving a simulation, desiring a simulation from an a coping strategy point of view or whether we are engaging with the real.

And what are the barriers to engaging with the real that we're that we're dealing with. And everyone will have their own answers to that. Um I'm also just reminded of a piece I really love, the peacock feather analogy bit um where everyone has a peacock feather behind them and each feather represents a strand of their life and each eye represents a pivotal moment or prominent person, etc. And no single person has the same peacock feather, right? Um and it's the culmination of all that represent and infect how we show up in any given situation. It was your comments Aisha, it was your talk that brought that to mind. So, thank you. Okay. Dearest friends,

It was nice. Aisha, thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Kiman and Ali, we'll talk again soon. Yeah, see you next time. Yeah. All right, have a good weekend, everyone.

Take care. Goodbye. Bye-bye. Yeah, here's

bye-bye.