The Sector Is Changing. How Do You Make Sense Of It?

Hello everyone. Hey Ali. Hi Kim. Hey guys. Hello. Um let's dive into it, shall we? Kim, you've been away. Where have you been? Tell us what you've been up to. Yeah. So I had spent April traveling. I must say it was both really energizing and exciting. And my introverted INTJ self is done. Like I'm really happy to be home right now. Um but I have I'm in that place right now where I'm trying to make sense of everything that happened and um it occurred to me earlier today that the name of our podcast is the Sector Debrief. And if I was to debrief you all on the state of the sector based on the last month of work that I've been doing will it be.

So I'm hoping that we can all kind of maybe unpack it together because it's always good to process out loud. Um I spent the first week of April in Buenos Aires, in Argentina with about 40 uh bridge builders. So intermediaries, networks, um bridgers from civil society to net uh kind of global networks to funders. So, that was like a very going deep, intimate, curated, intentionally designed space. And then I spent last week at the Skoll World Forum in Oxford, UK, where it was thousands of people um doing both formal and informal sessions and kind of doing one-on-one, a lot of coffee, a lot of tea uh conversations. All on the same topic, but in a very different format with very different kind of purposes, I think, and intent.

And so, I've been really reflecting on what all that means.

Wow. Yeah. And what conclusions have you made so far? What reflections have you had? Where are you getting stuck? What's what are you seeing Where am I getting stuck? Great question. So, first of all, it's just a lot of It's like a lot of really deep talk, which is my favorite kind of talk, really. Um really just kind of getting into it. And so, I appreciated that. I guess I have two kind of schools of thought. The first is on what we talked about, and I think there was a lot of synergy across both events. So, in terms of state of the sector, I think there's getting alignment and coherence around what's happening and what needs to get done. Although, certainly there are people in different places on their personal journeys, as we've talked about, right?

Some are sprinting ahead, and some are still kind of coming out of their bunker. But, well, also what I've been kind of reflecting on is the process. The process of collaboration, the process of coordinating, the process of working together to kind of build something different. Um and that's interesting, too. So, yeah. But, I don't want to take up I mean, I'm happy to share out, but I want to hear from you all what you're what you've been reflecting on, too.

I think like when I saw um your message for the first time about the event, and now hearing you talking, this the uh bridge builders, or those who are building bridges, it's it's always like kind of grab my attention. Because I feel it's it's um a very important um and essential thing that been happening before and now it's under so much attention and sometimes pressure and focus and all that. So, I would be like I'm really curious to hear more about it. What does that mean that context? Who was there and what type of bridges been trying to talk about and play build and all that. And the second thing that comes to my mind is um what you mentioned about the process like being in the process of doing that or I think the process means different things to different people.

So, I'm also curious to know what type of processes they were looking at or how do you define that process.

Yeah. Yeah. So, at the top level, I think the common thread that I've been hearing is or things that really resonated with me across both events is that this is not where we are as a sector right now is not just a funding problem. I mean everyone loves to talk about it as a funding problem because it's a really big pain point, but it's not just a funding problem. It's actually a social contract problem. Um it that civil society has a so there's a there's a challenge with citizens, global citizens of the world failing to see civil society as a public good for them. And that's a trust and a social contract problem. Of which funding is one important piece. And so when you start to see it like that, we've spent there's a lot of conversations in various corners of the world right now saying what is the role of civil society?

How is civil society actually making the world better? Um and then why aren't people everywhere experiencing or appreciating civil society as a public good? And when I put on my kind of facilitator trainer hat, to me that is that's a feel learning objective. Um and that's one of the hardest learning objectives to have because you can teach someone to know a piece of information, some data. You can teach someone to know a skill, to practice a skill. But getting someone to appreciate something means they have to feel it. And often times you only feel it when that thing goes away. So like we don't appreciate democracy until it goes away, right? So that's a big challenge that I frankly think is actually what's exciting about that is it's a big enough challenge for everyone to be able to kind of maybe agree on in terms of a North Star and then think about how do you address it from your own personal angle using your own superpower.

So it's almost like big enough that we can all agree on it. Then sometimes so we don't have as much like internal debate, I suppose. So that was that I'm starting to hear loud and clear.

Fascinating. Um you asked where we've been reflecting and one of the things I've been reflecting on a lot is the notion of sense making. Um And you're you're introducing that in relation to two specific trips that you've you've been on which I think is a helpful sort of grounding into the term sense making because for me I think and you mentioned this sort of bigger problem around civil society. I've been talking to people recently who are looking at culture within organizations, right? And this is non-profit, social impact-based organizations. And when they talk about culture, um you automatically go to kind of um how people feel, right? And you mentioned that feeling bit. Now a lot of the feelings, a lot of the emotions that I'm hearing in the candid conversations, and this is coming from individual staff, it's not coming from leadership, right?

Cuz they don't hear it. The staff are talking about grief. And they're not grieving the kind of changes that have happened, they're not grieving the colleagues that have left. Um what they're grieving with is a disillusionment. They're grieving with the loss of an idea and the loss of a concept that maybe arguably wasn't even there in first place, but we've kind of kidded ourselves or we kind of created structures that made us busy enough to feel like it was there. And yet now that kind of veil has been lifted, and what's been left with the institutionalized aid agencies is not upholding what it is people joined the sector to deliver on. And that's It's the social contract. That's exactly right, yeah.

And what's interesting about that is you also hear, you know, well and I think that is also one perspective because there are also communities around the world where it's like, yeah, we've known this for quite a while. That's why, you know, we reach out. We are very community-based because we can't trust a that broader social contract narrative you all have been pretending exists for quite a while. And so I will say what another thing that came out loud and clear in the in the Argentina event that I attended was, you know, civil society is both stronger than we think it is and it's more fragile than we think it is. You know, at the community level there it is there really are deep-rooted, strong civil society and have been for decades and decades.

It's at the structural level that it's really fragile.

But that speaks to one of the myths, I think, which is, you know, we've created a one-size-fits-all structure and architecture. And when that crumbles, we search for unequal alternative. We've spoken about this on previous episodes, right? What I think you're highlighting, I think the weakness you're highlighting is actually the strength. It's actually an example, a demonstration that moving forward is going to be the culmination of small, not the roll out of big. And so it's that it's the it is the thriving civil societies in countries and contexts and communities and villages all over the world, that's where we will see humanity exercised. And I think that's a wonderful thing. But we've got to be able to let go of this notion of one thing. We've got to let go of that idea that it's done a certain way.

And this is why I think the sense-making thing is really fascinating cuz for me sense-making it presupposes that there is sense to be made. Now, there may not be. Or the sense that is being made may not compute with your own frame of reference for the world, in which case it's not then going to be make sense. So, where are we in terms of acknowledging and understanding echo chambers that we exist within and the sense-making that we do um is that just to further to use my assimilate accommodate thing which we talked about before. Is that Is the sense-making that we're doing and in the conversations and in the coffee shops that you were at Oxford and Buenos Aires was that sense-making just assimilating information in an echo chamber effect just double down and reinforce what each individual believed, or was it sense-making that shifted perspective, shifted a frame of reference to then basically accommodate something different and new?

This is the question that I'm asking.

questioning because I have at my personality likes neat and tidy narratives. And so, it's really it's too easy to naturally do the assimilation. I think the for me the um the signal that I am accommodating something is when I feel uncomfortable. Yeah. In a good way. So, when I feel when I feel uncomfortable and I have to take a minute and I did feel uncomfortable in some of these spaces, then that's likely to a signal that things are shifting a little. Ali, give me your thinking face, then.

I think from my perspective, the word sector means different things to different people. And the sense-making process also means different things to different people. Civil society means different things to different people. So, I sometimes feel that in events, summits, or discussions, or we start with um a definition assuming that this is exactly what it means and we look at it from a perspective and we try to build on this. So, I feel sometimes we have the wrong starting point because just an example, when I look at what happened in the sector in the past year and even if you look at it in the past 3 years, you will see all those things that the funding cuts, operational limitations, reputational challenges and XYZ. But on the other hand, when I speak with local leaders or voluntary teams or even like small groups in a community doing things like a cleaning a street or making this public kitchen or etc.

For them, they are totally isolated from those things that we are talking about at macro global level or international institutions level or something like that. So, I think it means different things to different people. But also when I like this like building a bridge or something. Even the bridge means different things to different people. There is the international and the local, the global north and the global south, the humanitarian development sector and politics, humanitarian development sector and private sector or the economic side. And then even at country level, country and area, area and side, country and region, country and NGO and so I think there are so many bridges to build in India. But for me whenever the conversation becomes a bit uncomfortable, that's when I feel like, "Okay, we are challenging assumptions.

We are going back to first principles. We are looking at the right things." Because the moment things gets a bit more comfortable, to be honest, I feel we are getting a bit into the area of taking things for granted, building on assumptions and things like that. And the main reason why I'm saying that because as a human we changed, our economies changed, our behavior changed, the social dynamics changed, the things that there were so many things changed in the past years. So, I don't think it makes sense that everything is changing while we in the sector still remain the same and think about the same thing. So, I think this being uncomfortable, it is part of the process.

Yeah, 100 and just to be clear, I mean, I'm going to go back to the sense-making thing. The way I think about sense-making is sense-making is not the same as truth because there are a million different truths out there. Sense-making is just it's a frame as a lens through which to understand this particular moment allowing ourselves giving ourselves permission. Next week I might need to do different sense-making cuz there's new information coming in or there's new perspectives. And in some ways that's why I feel so both energized and depleted right now because while I really enjoyed all of the conversations, it takes a lot out of you to be continually uncomfortable. So, my brain is feeling really drained right now because it had to do all that stretching and all that thinking and now I have to like give it time to just percolate and land somewhere.

Um which is what you all are helping me do, so thank you. Don't even get me started Ali though on the network weaving bit cuz that's the bridging stuff. I'm really excited about it.

A lot of thoughts. I've got a whole metaphor concept thing on bridges versus network weaving and stuff. Let's not go down that route. Just yeah, I'm keen let's keep it keep it tangible for people. The two events you've been at, sense-making there, you said we're helping you do it. What are what are the thoughts now that you might not have had when you started? Cuz we haven't really focused on your specific events. Where are you at and where do you want to get?

So, for me I sort of mentioned at the start like a big overall insight that's coming out of I think if I said where is the state of the sector, this idea that um this is not just a funding problem, it's a social contract problem is coming out loud and clear to me. That's an interesting frame that I've been looking at things from. I mentioned the process and trying and I've been thinking about what the differences are between the two events. So, the first event I did was it was highly curated, so handpicked individuals for not necessarily even just yes, for different perspectives and for different roles and for different geographies and all of the things, but also for individual person traits, right? Who are the change makers?

Who are the connectors within those organizations? So, individuals kind of brought together representing nodes of networks. With the intent to come together and say, okay, yes, we want to reimagine the future of civil society, but with a focus on the how. How do we come together? And one of the things that came out for me loud and clear the entire time was we called out at we called out some of the tensions at the start. So, we said, there is an inherent competition between all of us. Like, let's just say that. That is true. And so, the only way to do this is to go in it and intentionally say, elbows in versus elbows out. So, when we go in, how do we say elbows in at all times?

And there were times where I started to get really defensive about my own position or about my own business model or about whatever. And then I had to intentionally say, elbows in. Let's like take a take step back from that defensive space. To me, that's an example of living your values in real time when things get hard. How do you live your values of being collaborative even when you're feeling that need to be um competitive. And that was really interesting. The other example of that was this was a what they're calling a stepping stone event. So, there were a few other events that were happening around the world within like a 2-month period. And they were all happening organically all about reimagining civil society. And the organizers, instead of saying, well, let's gatekeep, let's, you know, try and out-shout each other, said, no, let's let's collaborate.

Let's coordinate. And they invited each other to their own events and they built on it. So, the information about sense-making that happened in the first event was brought over and used as the basis, the foundation of the second event, which came into the event in Buenos Aires that I was in. And so, that all was for and then we did a like a pre-survey to give our opinions to the attendees there. There was some overlap, but not complete overlap of attendees. So, on the very first day we did a gallery walk looking at the sense-making. What are the challenges? What are the opportunities? What are the trends? All the things that many of us are very familiar with. What I liked about it is that probably took about 2 hours to get us all to a same common understanding and common place, even if we disagreed with each other, common language, etc., instead of a whole day or day plus.

And so, this idea of building off of each other um is I'm really excited about it because at the end of that event there was another event that was happening the next week and they literally like did a little Olympic like we're passing the torch to you now. Like you take this and go. And so, there's no like it's very it's very inclusive and open and let's do this. And it's organic, so it's not I'm sure we're there's leaving folks out, too, because it's organic, but the intent there in the practice I really I really did enjoy. So, that was very deep and looking at how do we as bridge builders, as networks elbows in, not as little competitive as possible, work together. Um to coordinate to cooperate, coordinate, and collaborate, of which these are three different things, which I've been thinking quite a lot about lately.

The event at Skoll is like your um conference, right? Although Skoll has the formal delegate um conference where you are you're paying for registration, of which I didn't personally attend. And then there's all these side events. So, the side events, uh both Marmalade and Sidebar, did a great job of kind of organically organizing people into spaces and self-leading on topics. But the understanding of Skoll is also just one-on-one kind of small group meeting in the corners and having conversations about what's happening. So, that was I would say the conversations were the topics were similar but much more surface level and there was a much greater variation on where people were coming from in terms of frankly some of the things that I thought was like yeah, we've been talking about this for 2 years was new for some and so it was more about exposure and connections.

Both are worthwhile purposes. They're just different both in terms of the format, the methodology and the purpose.

Sandra, when you've narrated that the two events had very different feels to them, right? Um the latter felt far more quote unquote traditional classic in its conferencing architectures by the sounds of it, right? And it was in Oxford, UK versus Buenos Aires, Argentina and I'm sure the location fed into it somewhat as well. Um but I'm particularly keen to know a little bit more in the first one the event in South America. Um you mentioned two very specific things. One, the elbows in conscious acknowledgement up front verbalized, articulated, called out. You created a mini social contract amongst yourselves in the in the space, right? And the fact that it was part of something bigger. It didn't have that sense of isolation. It felt like the and so there was a there was a worth to the conversation that was bigger than the than the event that you were attending.

I'm just wondering if you got any thoughts on how those two very specific and intentional acts of collaboration, mutuality, shared value how those contributed or where you saw the change in conversation as a result of having those two particular parts.

Yeah. So, I would add one more thing in terms of that social contract because there were funders in the room. There was a very clear and explicit agreement for no solicitation. So, that funders could come as thought leaders and not as like, you know, and that was on both sides. There was, you know, that's a very delicate line to walk on both sides. And so people we were able to come as people. And I will say even at school I am, you know, I am people I think these days are trying to come as more their more authentic selves. We've talked on this podcast a lot about being your authentic selves and being more vulnerable and bringing their whole selves. And that was at both of them, which I think is a I think that's a win these days.

Good. Um the other thing was, oh, um how did it move us? So what we did was we did all the sense making and then we said, okay, what are some big ideas of what we can actually do? And what I also appreciated about this space was how many times have you been to an event and it's like great conversations and then you all go back to your jobs and it's like, you know, I think we're all allergic to that at this point. So in my group we sat down and we all said, okay, what do you bring to the table? What do you personally and your organization, what are your superpowers, what are you really good at, and what can you realistically and feasibly do in the next 60 days?

Because it needs to align with what you're already doing. No one has the time or capacity to start something brand new even if you're excited about it in this moment in time. It has to kind of weave into your existing work or it's not going to it's not going to happen. So what can you really contribute in the next 60 days? And for me that got us that. We are now three weeks out and I'm still have like my list of to-do's that I haven't gotten to, but I will. So um but it did get us down to that more like tactical level so we weren't just falling in love with the problem all for three days, we were actually getting into the so what.

So I did appreciate that.

Excellent. And it feels it sounds the way you articulated that, it sounds like the that social contracting that you made created an accountability to the action plans and the things that you're taking forward, right? I like your translation, yes. What was your favorite moment? We also there was a lot of laughing, dancing.

Nice. Fun. So, people come showing up as people. You go to have fun. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I can imagine that aspect of fun then led to more creative and open thoughts and conversation. And it And it broke down the defense and the survivalist mansion things.

Yeah, it's it's all about the relational infrastructure, which is just a fancy way of saying like how do you be in relationship with each other? How do you have that back and forth? Absolutely. Yeah. Interesting. Ali, you were saying you've been doing some work with foundation foundational leadership or emerging leaders, new people coming in looking at the future.

Yeah, so I've been doing multiple things, but one interesting thing happened is a conversation I had in Arabic um with someone else who was also a leader in the humanitarian development sector and he progressed from being a volunteer, local staff, and then he started seeing overseeing countries. And it was published online, but then after that, I got so many messages from so many people like asking me questions about the foundation or what's the unique thing about those leaders I met who made a progress or were successful or something like that. So, I started looking at trends I've seen before and um also some data I got gathered throughout the year working with leaders. And some things I've been writing. And I came to the conclusion that one of the things that we've been talking about also in the in the first and the second episodes is this ability to think, reflect, and go back to the basics and build from there.

Um and I framed it in that conversation and also later on in multiple conversation with other people, I framed it as the zero to one. You know, when people ask you about key things to be good at your job or key things to progress as a leader or to do your work or what you are leading or leading in a very good way or etc. We start talking about, "Oh, you need this. You need to do that. Um a training, um mentorship, a coach, um experience in this, knowledge in that, sometimes education, etc." So, I call those like one to 10. Like those are the steps like 1 2 3 4 etc. But I came to the conclusion that one of the key things and the unique things that I found in common among all those different leaders that I have worked with and collaborated with is this zero-to-one.

Which means the ability to sit, think, assess, set your objectives, um diagnose your principles, look at your values, and then after assessing all that, start looking at this 1 2 3 4, which is doing this and that. So, I found it really inspiring and interesting to have those conversations with multiple people, um especially in the global south, leaders who are working with humanitarian organizations, civil society organizations, voluntary teams, and small initiatives, and have those conversations with them to look into the principles and the values and the vision, and also see how they are looking at the full this ecosystem that they are in. Um so, I feel that was really interesting and inspiring.

It is. And it's I don't know the details of the spaces or the organizations or the way you're in, but the way I've heard what you were saying there is an example of exactly what we started by saying that there isn't going to be a one-size-fits-all alternative to where we're at. It's going to be the world's sort of global citizenry and future of global humanity is going to exist in the small conversations and collaborations and discussions of exploration and reflection that you've just narrated and explained there, right? That's that's something very small, very tangible, very specific to a location with organizations. It's not trying to reshape global humanity. It's trying to live it.

No. Yeah, and if you think about it like individuals or teams or even organizations and institutions, it's it's about the starting point. You know, some of them they are working at area-based or field side. Others they are working at a bit more of like a country. Others they are looking at global level, but I think the focus was mainly at okay, what's your vision? The values, the principles, and then we start imagining the future and see how to approach that. And that's why I say like it's it's the key step is setting the foundation before even going into XYZ. And the main reason why I'm saying that because if you look at not only the sector, but even like being a leader outside the sector, there are so many assumptions.

You know, there are certain process for this, policies for that, best practices for this, XYZ. And sometimes we just build based on what's there. Like I usually say the worst thing is the best practices. I really don't like best practices. I like the best fit. You know, like I like to sit and see okay, what's the what's been learned here and there and then see what's the best fit for our situation. So, I noticed this thing about going back to first principles, assessing from there and building from there.

It's that pause, isn't it, that we've talked about? Like Yeah. falling in love with the problem or jumping to action. You can get stuck in both, but the pause in the middle is the thing that's going to really set you up for success. Exactly. Exactly. And even in some of the conversations, one of my suggestions to those who spoke to me, I was like, you know, watch those uh episodes that we had because we went through that discussion, we diagnosed it. And one them was telling me it feels like a companionship tool. And that's why the other day I was telling you the transcripts of our episodes, they are gold. Uh

Thanks. Well, we'll publish them in a book at some point in the future. Um what I what and again, I don't know if I'm over-romanticizing this in my own mind, Ali, but the way you just talked about that as well reminds me very much of a conversation that I had with a Syrian organization based in Turkey. And I was working with them coincidentally, I was working with them before the regime fell and after the regime fell. And so I helped with the sort of transition to the new context. But the bit that resonated with what you were saying there was this resistance that they felt to being labeled as a local national NGO, right? Cuz they didn't identify as that, right? Um they couldn't identify as a thing because the pigeonhole box, the label that they felt they were didn't exist.

And so they felt like they were constantly needing to conform to something, right? And the language that came out was they were resenting the fact that they were a localization trophy by large UN organizations. Now, what I'm hearing in the conversations that you've been having, Ali, is uh a an a searching and an identity forming fray um phase where they're not searching to fit a box. They're they're searching to who they want to be and who they are. And that's a big change. That's a huge shift from where we were only 12 24 months ago.

Yeah. I love how you said it because when we started looking at that especially the identity elements, the uh there were certain assumptions they started popping up. Passport, nationality, gender, education, certificates that you have, background that you have, all those things they came as like massive accumulated assumptions serving as barriers. And the moment we took that, like even it felt a bit like it felt like we were in the middle of a glass box and suddenly that box just disappeared.

Mhm. Um and majority of the conversation in an interesting way they went back to the identity. So there was this question related to the identity. And when we started cuz it was a dialogue and we were exchanging experiences and all that. It's so interesting because we were called different things in different setups. Like I was called local and international. Um uh global and like field guy. Um operational and program. Uh working class and elite. Uh educated, not educated enough. You know, so we were just like called in different things in different settings and all that. So I think it was really interesting and inspiring. And then I started reflecting and thinking about it.

It's absolutely fascinating. I've I've been I've been delivering a course. I hesitate to call it a course. It's it's a series of sessions that myself and a colleague have put together for leaders for senior leaders in social impact space. And very intentionally calling it that, not humanitarian with it's available to people who want to have social impact. And the first module that we talked through hold a space for is about leadership identity. And it's about understanding your leadership identity. And the invitation, the provocation that we put forward is that leadership identity that you hold how much of that is truly yours as an individual versus how much of it is something that you have assumed based on the narrative storytelling of a previous generation. And the leadership styles and sort of broad vogues of leadership are a response to an external environment at the time.

And the leadership that we've had through the '80s, '90s, early 2000s was in a response to basically the golden era of liberal peace. We're not in that era anymore. So, what leadership fashions, what leadership vogues are going to be required? What is an individual's leadership identity going to necessitate? Now, I bring that up because if we engage with if we if we sort of follow the thread of we use a set of language that was created that we've assumed that we've accommodated over the years, how relevant is that language to the environment that we're currently in? And the thought came to my mind as you were listing off all the different contradictory labels that you were you were called. Now, that to me sounded very much like there was a searching for something for a label for a language that we don't have or it's not the first set of language that comes to our mind.

The language that we're having comes from a previous era and yet we're latching onto it. We can't move on from that. So, how much of our current thinking is what we've accommodated and learned from the previous generations that we're carrying forward versus how much of it is truly what we need and what we want to be doing for the moment that we're in now? And I don't have the answer to it.

That's interesting, Thomas, because so as you're talking, I'm thinking, you all know that I love the two loops model. So, for anyone who is not familiar with the two loops model, right? You have your dominant system, which we were all part of, right? And the dominant system is now dying. You have then emerging systems that are coming out and many people are making the transition, right? They're leaping and they're bridging from the old way to the new way. But what's exciting, I think that we all agree on is that no there is not going to be a one new dominant system coming up. There's going to be multiple possibilities that come out. Now, that makes it very stressful from like I'm an executive director and I'm planning my future's perspective, but it's very exciting from the perspective of I don't all of a sudden the box that I was in can just get smashed.

I can decide which future I want to be building as I go. If I don't recognize and or acknowledge the old dominant system as the one that I want to be part of. It can be really freeing. And the question is what I just heard you say Thomas is cuz first I was thinking Yes, but we can get trapped in the language thing because we'll just stay there. You can spin your wheels talking about language all day long and no one's ever going to agree on a language cuz it's so contextualized. At the same time, if you rely on old language from an old dominant system, are you at risk of perpetuating just out of inertia the old system? So, there's a balance there, of course.

Um, but what I find liberating about it is if you start if you acknowledge that there will be multiple futures possible and we get to build them right now. Then all of those labels that you were talking about Ali can just kind of dissipate. Like you don't even have to do anything with them. They can just kind of evaporate, which is kind of cool.

It is. It is cool. Yeah. Um, to be totally honest, I think that the question that you mentioned or this dilemma is something I faced in my career and in my professional life uh almost every day. Um, and you know, like I find sometimes myself in a challenging position where I know there is something let's say it's not working or the way it's said is you know, it bothers me or something, but sometimes I have to choose my fights and my battles. So, I okay, like I will let it go. But other times I feel like, oh, I wish I like stood up for that and stopped it and maybe now it would have impact or something. And even sometimes I was working in some kind of like toxic environment with a bad organizational culture and all that and I decided to just like go, just leave.

And I have some thoughts where like, oh, I wish I stood up and spoke uh and challenged it more and what I did is not enough and all that. But at the same time, even like even right now, you know, I sometimes feel I sometimes see some organizations they are preaching certain kind of values and then practicing something else or they are advocating for something then doing something else or they are educating something and when I work with their country uh level colleagues, they are doing something else. So, I have to look into those dilemmas on daily basis and choose and pick what I'm going to do and all that. But I really think in the end of the day I feel it's part of the journey and those leaders that I mentioned, they've been all facing something like that.

Um so I find it extremely hard to find an answer to um to what you mentioned, Ken, because I think it's just it's extremely hard. I'm not sure even how that will stop.

Well, what it brings to mind is when we had uh Sophia on and she was talking about really about her authenticity and how she navigated it, right? So, she had her authentic self and she had to live in the dominant system and succeed in the dominant system and that was her, you know, we're going to I'm going to change it from the inside out. So, I need to do both. What struck me with from her story was she had a very clear sense of self and authenticity and she was very clear about the strategy she was going to be doing of, you know, speaking the talk, code switching, doing all of these things. And I'm sure in on a day-to-day basis, Ali, it felt very uncomfortable of where do I pick my battles, Where is this line?

But she was very clear about, you know, there are some lines where I'm going to be my authentic self. I am not going to be moving to the global north. I am going to stay where I am. I'm going to do these things. Um and with what I heard from you is in your first examples of these leaders that you're working with is maybe, I don't know if I don't want to put words in their mouth that this is the first time, but there is now more permission for them to truly figure out who their authentic self is, rather than just take for granted a label that's been put on them. And that's important. I think that is a step forward to say, do the work to figure out who you are authentically, then you may need to make the choice to code switch or to compromise, but that's an intentional choice.

That's not kind of doing it blindly.

Yeah, in general I think there is better environment for challenging assumptions, building allies, more people are seeing examples of people who managed to break those glass ceilings and glass boxes, and those people are telling their stories. And I think the stories story telling is becoming one of the most powerful tools right now. And people who are sharing those with each other and some networks or forums or discussions or meetings or webinars or podcasts or articles or posts, all those empowering in a way or another and inviting them to step in and start having this sense making, identifying their principles and priorities and values and challenge the assumptions and all that. I think there is an empowering conversation and dialogue happening and coming to the surface right now that is supporting those leaders in different ways.

It's um I agree and how cool is that? That's happening, right? And that to me is the natural It's almost I mean it's spring here in the UK, so it's it's we're starting to see all the new shoots of life come up, right? Um and I'm big on the nature-based metaphors and mycelial networks is something that I spend a lot of time thinking about. I thought of earlier as you were talking, Ali. But the new shoots of growth that are coming up are the conversations you're talking about, right? Where there's been there's been a dark winter and we're we're coming out of the dark winter now and it's the new shoots that are emerging and they're the range and diversity of plants in the spring is replicated in the range and diversity of organizations that are emerging and coming up as themselves as their true authentic selves.

I think it's wonderful. And the other thought I had

Yeah, go ahead. No, no, no, go. No, I was going to move it back to something you said earlier. I'll come back to it. So, one of we talked about this quite a bit in Argentina as well and yes, there are new shirt shoots emerging, but another thing that we talked about was some of those saplings will have already have always been there. They're just not recognized or valued by the dominant system. And so, when in a forest, a big tree falls, right? It leaves space for those little those little in it a little I it sounds belittling. It's those grassroots level saplings or things that were maybe under-resourced to get more resources. So, some of it is about yes, clearing space, but some of it is just holding space.

Like just get out of the way and let and give and amplify what's already working because it was always happening. It's just it wasn't or resourced or recognized by the dominant system. So, that's a different role that the dominant players traditionally um can play now.

It's it's fascinating. At the risk of overextending a metaphor and trying to make a segway back to something, I don't know if this will work or not, but you're you're referring to that forest-based ecosystem metaphor in quite a static way, whereas actually forests, they have generational change, right? And that tree that was growth and big, that grew up for its moment. It fell over and the next generation of growth is going to come through, right? And so we're seeing this cyclic cyclical growth, death, decay, growth, etc. And are we living through that now? And you mentioned the two loop thing, right? That sounds very similar to the three horizons model, right?

It is. Yeah. And right, it's just two horizons of the three, right? Um and of the three horizons, there's two ways to visualize, isn't there? There's the wave form, right? And the wave represents where there's transition from one to two, but it's a dip, right? And there's dips that need to be acknowledged, but also is recognized that these crossover points are points of tension, conflict, uncertainty, disagreement, hello to everything we're experiencing and living today, right? We're in that moment, absolutely. But also three horizons, you can see that the beginnings of horizon three exist now, right? They're the fledgling ideas. They're the things in the sidelines, the margins. It's the bits that people tinker with and toy with and experiment with on the side of their desks.

Those are where we're going to start seeing the horizon three stuff emerge and it's what horizon two is being lent on as a stepping stone stuff. So, this idea that the future is not known, I think is something that people find too scary, too overwhelming. And yet actually it's not unknown. We do know It won't be that different to a variation of the concepts of the sort of quote unquote wild old ideas that have been discussed in the past. That's the beginning seeds of growth that will evolve into what we have in the future. So, let's just fan the flames of those a little bit, right?

Can I do one more and take it even an even possibly cringe step fur- further? Go for it. So, my colleague at school attended a session and they were given uh cards. They were They had a thing of cards of different pieces of different images of a forest and it was like water and trees and seeds and fungi and all these things and they had to say okay, pick one of who what would represent you the most and then they did a whole activity around it. And I've been thinking about that in terms of sometimes people feel helpless like oh I don't have the power. I don't have the control or the power to do things but everyone has a role to play and everyone has power if we just sit in our own power and so often times kind of everyone wants to be like the trees and the flowers cuz those are the visible things and those are the things that we admire but a healthy ecosystem needs like the little bugs and the pollinators and I personally see myself as the mycorrhizal fungi cuz I think it's fantastic and so and so um there is power in all of those spaces.

I picked up this book. Mycelial Entangled Life How Fungi Make Our Worlds, Change Our Minds, and Shape Our Futures. That's a different podcast Thomas I could talk about it all day. We can definitely explore mycelial networks in another way but I love it. I think the mycelial network as a metaphor and something that we can tangibly connect with in terms of how interconnected we are is a phenomenally exciting idea. Um yeah, powerful but completely hidden and out of view.

I like that. Um Kim, we started this by helping wanting to help you make sense of your two trips. How have we done that? Yeah, I think it's helpful just to kind of talk it out loud. So thank you for that and none of you kind of looked confused or horrified so that's always a good thing I think. There are some tensions that came out and um I think maybe that's a good conversation to have next time. I think jumping from horizon one of the dominant system ending to horizon two is a really scary jump. When do you do it? How do you do it? Um and what are the tensions within is maybe something that we could unpack in another episode.

Well, the starting point for that would be the second visualization of three horizons, right? As stepping stones with one coming up like the bell, and then the second one starting just as the first bell crests. Yeah. But it dips and then goes up. Yeah. Right? And I was talking to someone about this and they go, "It's a bit like the transition from the typewriter to the computer, right? The last ever typewriter was far more advanced than the first ever computer and it was far easier in the workflow to engage with than the first ever computer, but no one said, "Ditch the computers, right?" And now look where we are. Like it's about accepting that little dip at the beginning, isn't it? And knowing that you have to start investing in it before you've peaked on your first piece, right?

So, yeah, I completely agree. Ali, where are you at after almost an hour of conversation? What's on your head at the minute?

Um I think like hearing what Kim mentioned and your reflections on both what we mentioned, I feel like I want to think again about the things that I observed and noticed through my conversation with those leaders and see are they in a way or another reflecting or they are connected to what Kim mentioned about those events. I'm really curious to see is there something that would connect those dots or something? Like how this ecosystem like those changes at different angles or it will not happen. Um but also I'm thinking about um an activity I did last week with a with a friend where we were talking about same like policy and governance and digitalization and the future of the sector and all that. And then she was telling me like, "Today you will do it in a different way." So, we went to the storage and then later to the basement.

We collected some things from there. And things I don't need or things she doesn't need and uh we took it to a recycling station and to the second-hand shop and later to uh Red Cross Red Crescent shop. So, I feel and she was saying that today we are humanitarians like this. This is our way today. Aside from all that, it was really inspiring, interesting, and gave me so much energy and joy to do this thing in a different way. So, I think it's really um it's something also to think about that sometimes it is about those things that you do at that level, not macro global level or

micro system level. I love that. I'm sat here. It's funny. This conversation is carrying on a theme from a conversation I had much earlier this morning with my time society around um the future, around where we go. And there's a real momentum shift taking place in terms of departing from the old um and shifting away from that, but in a space or the individuals who are engaging in those conversations are not the people who are still sort of heavily entrenched in the system. I think there's there's a there's a growing recognition and almost a resentment to the fact that the system, the institutions that make up that system, can't change. All right? They're stuck in a certain way. And that is maybe a reality and maybe that's okay.

The rest of us and the rest of the world, the people outside those institutions, are where the growth, the future, the engagement with the big topics and arguably the sort of resistance to trends, the resistance against plurality that is necess- that is so necessary in the future as you were mentioning earlier, Kim. That's an exciting space. And I think within that space that's going to emerge and that we've spoken about multiple times today. Every element that you guys were talking about that you've engaged with recently is an example of that new space emerging. What's the reincarnation of the institutions in the system will have a home there. There'll be a place for that. But it won't be the only thing in that space. And I think that's a that's a healthy reality and a healthy future to move into.

And so I'm I'm leaving this conversation and closing out my day feeling very hopeful for the way that things are evolving despite the uh the tumultuous journey that it has to go on to get there.

It's a good way to end your day. My picture here says hope is a form of resistance. Resist through joy. Excellent. Cool. All right. Um till next time then, guys. Yeah. See you in a few weeks. time. See you then. Cheers. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.